To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

[Blackbird1234]

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

Oh to add to my now redundant list of safeguards (what's even the point???)

All children conceived by surrogacy must be told the truth about their conception from an early age.

**So glad I'm not holding my breath for you to come up with any actual practical way to implement any of the shit you are spouting, 'mate'.

There is legislation in the UK which on the whole I agree with. It's imperfect but it's practical. I'm not arguing with the legislation, I'm arguing for it not to change! It's amazing that you're ten pages in without having understood that**

@RepentMotherfucker

Just because something is illegal now, doesn’t mean it will always be that way! How naive to assume things won’t change……

I recon over the next few years a few things will change and with the whole equality movement etc…. Watch this space!!

Just because something is illegal now

Jesus wept. Surrogacy isn't illegal in the U.K. it is legal. Commercial surrogacy is illegal. Altruistic surrogacy is legal. Proposals take us closer to commercial surrogacy. I see you're quick to comment and as a result perhaps you are not absorbing much. What did you think the public consultation, mentioned back on...oh I don't know, page 4 or 5, was about?

I recon over the next few years a few things will change and with the whole equality movement etc…. Watch this space!!

So you don't understand what law reform means and didn't clock that this is already happening in the U.K. despite it being mentioned several times?

This "whole equality movement" of which you speak, what does that mean? Equality for women? Equality for men?

Which bit of my post says I am assuming things won't change? I specifically said I am arguing that they shouldn't.

Are you high?

@ldontWanna

I think your list was a good starting point and it demonstrates that it's complex and needs a lot of deep thought, examples, research and analysis to build a framework that truly works for all parties, remains balanced and doesn't create a hierarchy between parties and safeguards against potential harm.

On the counselling issue, I and have never received implications counselling as a surrogate mother, but my understanding from those who have (from a large Surrogacy Agency in the U.K.) have told me that it focuses on the likelihood that the mother will relinquish her parental rights. It's not counselling or therapy in the sense where it would explore her reasons and get to the root of any trauma, it's very much a tick-box exercise. The counsellors claim to be 'independent' but are arranged through the agency and paid for by the commissioning parents as part of their membership so I think it's reasonable to be sceptical. (It's a bit like the research the American Tabacco companies paid for, that 'proved' that smoking doesn't cause cancer, or the Drs paid for by PGC&E helped the Hinckley water poisoning victims.)

In "Unexpected Mother" by Susan A Ring, an American woman who was a surrogate mother to several babies (including triplets that were 'reduced' to twins because 3 was too many) spoke of how she was a "people pleaser" and how she had a difficult upbringing and decided to become a surrogate mother whilst going through a divorce. I think it's possible that many women, if not most, who become surrogate mothers, would benefit from deeply exploratory therapy that could perhaps pinpoint their true motivation.

I'm hoping that the high-earning/tax paying surrogate mother upthread returns to explain a bit more, as she said she remains involved in the 'surrogacy world' and I think she could help to explain more about the implications therapy, perhaps explain how I was wrong (as this is anecdotal) but I don't want to tag her and draw her back into this messy thread!

As a quick reference, a recently launched surrogacy agency in the U.K. has the following breakdown.

Here is the post. It presents this as a list of where the money goes but also appears to be the breakdown of fees.

So for example, if it's about where your membership fee is spent, why would a commissioning parent/s need marketing and admin as part of their fee? They are already there and want a baby not to be 'marketed' too...

If this is where the money is invested, as a company, for the purposes of building for a "non profit" why would it include be pregnancy?

It's possibly just badly worded (and badly spelled). If the 'emotional support' fee could be broken down into what it actually covers I would guess that this would include the implications counselling session/s but from their post it's clear it's about the members, meaning the commissioning parents, and not the surrogate mothers. So maybe that is paid for elsewhere or if provided for free.

You get what you pay for.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CXGWQ0Ks7lC/?utmmedium=copyy_link

Aren't they marketing you? To potential surrogates?

I don’t think it’s something people go in to without serious consideration

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/3806707-Im-becoming-a-surrogate-AMA

Just had first transfer in hopes of becoming a surrogate for a friend. Ask away.

Q. What happens to the baby if both dads, for example, die in a car accident before delivery?

A. Oooo interesting. I’ll ask them

So yes actually, people do go surrogacy into without serious consideration.

@RepentMotherfucker

Aren't they marketing you? To potential surrogates?

I guess that must be it, what could the £50 on future families be, securing the same gametes to have full siblings? Freezing them alone would be way more than that.

What would the practical support be, organising taxis to scans? Babysitters for existing children whilst you attend the birth?

Clinics and science - less than a grand!
351 on getting started?

I suppose saying it's an investment is more of a language thing, as in, this is your membership and it's an investment in your future/future child.

For 4,500 I'd want to know more, but it's a nice infographic.

@ldontWanna

I know it wasn't my task but I've been thinking of some safeguards and restrictions to put in place to make as fair as possible.

First of all yes, mandatory , independent and confidential psychiatric assessment prior to insemination, after ,all throughout the pregnancy and at least a year after birth. If things go wrong interventions and options to be offered.

The parents have no legal right to the baby or the mother up until birth. So the buyers can't dictate what the mother eats, does, what medicine she might need, they have no rights to decide if complications arise or any health issues.

On the money side, while they can't pay "for the baby" costs for the mother should be covered with documentation (time off work if unpaid,medical costs etc). They should also be responsible for any medical (mental or physical) costs as a direct result of the pregnancy/birth. The parents are legally responsible for this regardless of the outcome of the pregnancy. In the same manner they are financially responsible for the baby even if they don't want it. Any and all associated medical costs , finding them a new family , being looked after the state etc.

Checks on the parents , DBS , a psychiatric assessment for themselves , who are they,where do they come from,where are they going etc. No opportunities(or as least as possible) to just "disappear" in the ether.

The mother has the right to change her mind either during pregnancy or up to a year after birth. This is controversial and it has it's own downsides so I have to think on it a bit more.

The mother has her own panel of "support". Independent Doctor,lawyers ,maybe even a social worker to advise about any and all risks.

The option of being in the child's life is they so wish, unless that would be detrimental to child as assessed by an independent professional.Same for the child, full access and information to any and all information they might require, including the possibility of contact if they want to.

In case of death the baby (or the mother on their behalf if she chooses to keep the baby) is a beneficiary of the estate.

I'm sure I missed a lot(which shows how complex this is) but that's just the very least that is needed.

This is actually the most thought provoking post of all on this thread (for me) and I applaud you for that.

We don’t agree on most issues, but I do appreciate you taking the time to actually write down and post where you stand.

I respect that you took the time to actually answer the questions I asked of you. You were respectful in this reply and again, whilst we won’t and don’t always agree, your post was informative and articulate without being childish and pathetic.

Thank you for showing some people can hold different but they don’t need to be disrespectful.

Again, of all the posts on this threat THIS will be the one that holds the most clout with me.

Think £4500 is much less than the Uk average expenses.

@Helleofabore

Your suggestions are more of the same and do not adequately safeguard women against coercion and mental health issues.

Signing a form…. I am pretty sure that is what they do now. Working well isn’t it?

And it doesn’t come close to mitigating the mental health risks to the child. The one who might not want to have been made the way they were; you know, exploiting women’s bodies.

As oppose to the ones that have have to endure - smack head/alcoholic/ abusive parents and step parents for bringing them in to the world…

Lovely life for the poor kids…..

Whatabout Whatabout.

@Dozer

Think £4500 is much less than the Uk average expenses.

This is just the membership cost. It doesn't cover the 'science' bit. The costs of the implantation alone would never be covered by less than £1k.

And 'legals' at £800?! This would more wisely be labelled as mediation as contracts aren't applicable in the U.K. maybe its legal advice to ensure the surrogate mother understands her legal position - but again this appears to be for members/commissioning parent/s. Maybe it's both?

Surrogacy expenses average 12-15k it has been claimed and 'expenses' as high as 60k have been recorded.

I simply don't understand how this breakdown is realistic.

@DaisiesandButtercups

“So what would happen to the kids that were removed from their parents?

If adoption wasn’t legal, what would become of the kids? Just children’s homes?

That would be a worse outcome for the child for sure in most cases…. What is he thinking”

He is thinking that in the interests of children their birth certificates should never be altered and that families in poverty should be supported by the state so that they can stay together, that any stigma against single mothers should be ended in order that mothers and babies can stay together.

He is particularly against international adoption but also argues that nationally fostering is preferable to adoption in cases where the parents are abusive, beyond help or dead. This last part about fostering being preferable to adoption is not what I would have said myself before listening to him. I am not sure I am convinced but I accept his argument about not changing birth certificates, I’m not sure that happens in the UK, I thought that an adoption certificate was a separate document but I need to look into that further. He has an interesting and relevant argument though. I invite you to listen to him yourself to discover what he says and how you feel about it, or have a look at his website.

Thank you. I will look in to it. My understanding of the social services involvement in children, is that it isn’t to do with poverty issues as such, but whether parents are able to safeguard their children.

There are plenty of families on low incomes and whilst that can cause issues such as overcrowding etc the majority of them are doing the best for children under their circumstances

@ldontWanna

But I agree with you that it’s immoral for companies to target women specifically

Who the fuck else would they specifically target for egg donations? Platypuses?!?

Just read your reply to this and my respect for Young’s disappeared.

What a shame…….

you

Oh my god. Are you handing out respect like gold stars?

Well, that is a new one.

@Helleofabore

You seem to want the impossible

What adequate safeguarding for women and children?

There is a reason why other countries ban all surrogacy. It is not an impossible situation.

Not all countries…… the most powerful country in the world accepted it.

They have 330 million plus people compared to 66 million….

Doesn’t see to that many opposing views….

@Helleofabore

Oh my god. Are you handing out respect like gold stars?

Well, that is a new one.

She giveth and she taketh away...

I thought it was quite an inspired reply to that particular statement.. but what do I know?

So do you have any thoughts on this?

Yes- my thoughts are they are your opinions!

@crunchermuncher

Whatabout Whatabout

Because some ‘big countries’ do it, so should everyone.

I take it you mean the USA. And we have posted pages and pages on the issues with the USA. It is hardly the gotcha you seem to think it is. Maybe you didn’t read things posted.

Currently in New York (as has been mentioned before) ‘reproductive equality’ is being pushed. So that gay male couples have the ‘right’ to hire an egg donor, hire a womb to have a child of their ‘creation’.

And in general, I would not put the US as a very stellar example of a human rights leader.

But the situation has been quite well covered already on this thread. Remember the targeting of university students for donor eggs?

My answer to this is ‘so what’? Should we be taking lessons from them on this and other human rights issues?