To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

[Blackbird1234]

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

@Helleofabore

Yes coercion can happen and there are ethical issues surrounding it, in some situations but you and others want a blanket ban on surrogacy and that’s your right to exercise but you fail to take in to account that some women actually are wanting to do it.

Yes. Until proper, reliable safeguards are in place and a sure way to insure that no harm at all will come to the women whose bodies have been reduced to egg producers and incubators. Until it can be assessed all psychological effects there could be for the child that cannot be mitigated.

Until then, yes. I do think surrogacy needs to be put on hold.

How many women and children are acceptable collateral damage in this pursuit of procuring children for someone who cannot have them?

As PP asked, what are the negative effects on woman who would-be surrogates if they are not used as surrogates? And what would those negative effects be?

As PP asked, what are the negative effects on woman who would-be surrogates if they are not used as surrogates? And what would those negative effects be?

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

It’s still not your choice to make

It's starting to look a lot like GF time...

She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend and it will mean her sis or friend will never be able to be a mother.

That will likely be a topic that is discussed at length for several years.

If only there was something I could do to help take this pain away?… oh wait….

And there are other ways to be a mother without resorting to exploiting a loved ones’s body and maybe an egg donor’s body as well.

Or… is it simply only being a mother of an infant created just for you that is acceptable!

**Starcup has offered to put together a document on this today. I am assuming it will be posted here.

TBF a couple of bullet points showing evidence of any kind of engagement with any of the intelligent arguments posters have tirelessly repeated in the face of 'you're so mean', 'what about babies with no heads, they are sad too' and 'you can't legislate against stuff that's bad, that's like denying that women are human beings' would do me at this stage. Still not holding my breath though**

Mate, you wouldn’t agree with legislation anyway. I believe you would constantly argue your ‘point’. You would never ever be satisfied.

[quote DaisiesandButtercups]I’ve just finished listening to a Savage Minds podcast which explores this very issue with guest Arun Dohle. Arun was adopted and now campaigns against adoption and surrogacy seeing both as essentially exploitation of the poor by the rich and neglect of children’s rights by the state.

I recommend it as an enlightening listen to anyone interested in this topic.

Arun firmly centres the rights of children.

His website is here

www.againstchildtrafficking.org/what-we-do/

This is linked from his website

www.stopsurrogacynow.com/the-statement/#sthash.RDAz8vfO.CkmuZMQI.dpbs[/quote]
So what would happen to the kids that were removed from their parents?

If adoption wasn’t legal, what would become of the kids? Just children’s homes?

That would be a worse outcome for the child for sure in most cases…. What is he thinking

@Helleofabore

She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend and it will mean her sis or friend will never be able to be a mother.

That will likely be a topic that is discussed at length for several years.

If only there was something I could do to help take this pain away?… oh wait….

I don’t think you quite understand that you are talking about emotional coercion right there.

Rubbish!!

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

And in your world, the potential damage to a surrogate, an egg donor, and psychological damage to the child is nothing compared to a woman wanting a child via surrogacy?

Whatabout. Whatabout.

@Helleofabore

She won’t be able to do such a selfless thing for her sister/best friend and it will mean her sis or friend will never be able to be a mother.

That will likely be a topic that is discussed at length for several years.

If only there was something I could do to help take this pain away?… oh wait….

And there are other ways to be a mother without resorting to exploiting a loved ones’s body and maybe an egg donor’s body as well.

Or… is it simply only being a mother of an infant created just for you that is acceptable!

Funny that because a pp has shared a it a guy who would like adoption to be banned!

So if that ceases to exist tell me how you could become a mother?..

That’s how you see that the person is being exploited, that’s not how they see it. So why should you dictate to them they are wrong…..

@Helleofabore

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

And in your world, the potential damage to a surrogate, an egg donor, and psychological damage to the child is nothing compared to a woman wanting a child via surrogacy?

You do realise egg donors can actively chose to donate their eggs?? Did you know that???

Seems to me you’re suggesting they’re forced and that’s erm BS! The same way men can donate sperm.

[quote flippertyop]@roarfeckingroarr I think you just had a clingy baby. I had to go back to work after a few weeks. My kids turned out just fine [/quote]
But you can't pretend that was ideal can you?

No one thinks of the effect on the children. Not enough people think about the vulnerable women involved. The only situation in which I could accept surrogacy as not ethically bankrupt is if the mother was a close friend or family member of the adoptive mother and she was a big part of the baby/child's life

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

They're not the ones carrying the risk(or the higher risk if they use their own eggs) . That's why it's not about them.

And the question of negative outcomes from not being able to do something should ALWAYS be identified,discussed and analysed. Whether you agree with that thing or not. It's the best way to somewhat balance things.

You do realise egg donors can actively chose to donate their eggs?? Did you know that???

Yes. I know. I also know the risks associated with egg donation quite well.

Seems to me you’re suggesting they’re forced and that’s erm BS!

Have you ever seen the overly emotive ads targeted at US university students? And other economically vulnerable women.

I dare say you have not read the accounts linked up thread that go with those donations.

They go into the health risks that those women face and too often not protected against in the pressure to maximise eggs.

The same way men can donate sperm.

Fuck this is boring. We have already covered the difference between a woman having her ovaries hyper stimulated to produce as many eggs as possible, the risks that can be stroke, infertility and even death.

Compared to wanking into a cup.

@ldontWanna

What about them? What about the psychological damage on women that find out they’re infertile? What about this that and the other…

They're not the ones carrying the risk(or the higher risk if they use their own eggs) . That's why it's not about them.

And the question of negative outcomes from not being able to do something should ALWAYS be identified,discussed and analysed. Whether you agree with that thing or not. It's the best way to somewhat balance things.

Yes but people won’t accept that some women want to be surrogates and will be aware of the risks for themselves.

I don’t think it’s something people go in to without serious consideration.

Some people on here won’t accept it point blank, therefore there is not discussion. They believe that their opinion is the only opinion

@Helleofabore

You do realise egg donors can actively chose to donate their eggs?? Did you know that???

Yes. I know. I also know the risks associated with egg donation quite well.

Seems to me you’re suggesting they’re forced and that’s erm BS!

Have you ever seen the overly emotive ads targeted at US university students? And other economically vulnerable women.

I dare say you have not read the accounts linked up thread that go with those donations.

They go into the health risks that those women face and too often not protected against in the pressure to maximise eggs.

The same way men can donate sperm.

Fuck this is boring. We have already covered the difference between a woman having her ovaries hyper stimulated to produce as many eggs as possible, the risks that can be stroke, infertility and even death.

Compared to wanking into a cup.

There’s risks in everything. Is it morally right to go in to university’s etc? no but there’s always rogue companies out to make a quick buck and there will always be naive women who get sucked in.

That shouldn’t be a reason to stop someone who is well informed in donating their eggs. Most of the time the procedure will have taken place via IVF so the egg retrieval will have been done anyway and not specifically for donation.

This scenario isn’t the same as the ones in your example (which I also disagree with)

No. People do accept that some people want to be surrogates. However, as I mentioned a page or so back.

Until there is a robustly proven way to eatablish there is absolutely no form of coercion at play. No mental health issues that need to be considered.

These want to be surrogates cannot be safeguarded adequately.

And we have shown evidence that too often women making this decision do not actually think seriously enough about it. They only look at the positives, a bit like some posters.

I've been reading this thread with interest, having never formed a firm opinion on surrogacy.

With adoption, any negative impacts on the adopted child are likely to be acceptable because the alternative of not being adopted (eg a childhood spent in care) is even worse.

With surrogacy, the situation is quite literally man-made.

I don't know what the psychological effects of being a surrogate child are, and I suspect these effects are variable and unpredictable, but in the event that a surrogate child suffers MH trauma, what is the point of a lifetime of "privilege" and financial security if they're not happy within themselves?

To say that surrogacy is fine because many children are born naturally into rather rubbish circumstances, is an illogical argument.
The fact that many children may be born into rubbish circumstances is terrible but it doesn't then follow that it is okay for other children to be deliberately born into different rubbish circumstances.

Currently, it seems impossible to fairly safeguard everyone's interests (and in particular, the surrogate mother and child) should anything go wrong.

Like many things, a good indicator of whether surrogacy is an equitable arrangement or not is: is it equally available to (and equally taken up by) a good cross-section of people on "both sides" of the undertaking.
ie, are there roughly equal numbers of wealthy/white/western/privileged/etc... would-be parents AND surrogates... or is there an imbalance somewhere
And if there is an imbalance, then one group are probably at a disadvantage...

@Helleofabore

No. People do accept that some people want to be surrogates. However, as I mentioned a page or so back.

Until there is a robustly proven way to eatablish there is absolutely no form of coercion at play. No mental health issues that need to be considered.

These want to be surrogates cannot be safeguarded adequately.

And we have shown evidence that too often women making this decision do not actually think seriously enough about it. They only look at the positives, a bit like some posters.

How would you implement what you would like to see? Via a questionnaire? Interview? Who would decide if they were suitable ‘candidates’? A psychologist? Psychiatrist?

How could anyone ever know the outcome? They can only make sure the woman is well informed and signs a firm to say she understands the risks (both emotionally and physically)

to add nothing is ever guaranteed. Even a routine operation can go wrong so I’m not entirely sure what guarantees you’d like to see…

There’s risks in everything. Is it morally right to go in to university’s etc? no but there’s always rogue companies out to make a quick buck and there will always be naive women who get sucked in.

That shouldn’t be a reason to stop someone who is well informed in donating their eggs.

And the women who have almost died due to egg donation included well educated women from university. And they still got ‘sucked in’ and almost lost their life… so tell us again how to determine the degree of coercion and mental health issues involved in making these donations or offering services. And how coerced or mentally ill women are not falling through these cracks at the moment.

Most of the time the procedure will have taken place via IVF so the egg retrieval will have been done anyway and not specifically for donation.

And if ALL was limited to this (and again no emotional or financial coercion to donate those eggs already harvested) until such time as to be sure those ‘naive’ women who get ‘sucked in’ it would be fine.

This scenario isn’t the same as the ones in your example (which I also disagree with)

No and I have now said it at least two times about using already donated eggs left from other treatments being fine ( under proviso of no coercion)

Because a baby being taken from its mother at birth is horrific. Babies need skin to skin, breastmilk and the sent and sound of their mother. To deprive them of this is heartbreaking and abuse.

@Helleofabore

There’s risks in everything. Is it morally right to go in to university’s etc? no but there’s always rogue companies out to make a quick buck and there will always be naive women who get sucked in.

That shouldn’t be a reason to stop someone who is well informed in donating their eggs.

And the women who have almost died due to egg donation included well educated women from university. And they still got ‘sucked in’ and almost lost their life… so tell us again how to determine the degree of coercion and mental health issues involved in making these donations or offering services. And how coerced or mentally ill women are not falling through these cracks at the moment.

Most of the time the procedure will have taken place via IVF so the egg retrieval will have been done anyway and not specifically for donation.

And if ALL was limited to this (and again no emotional or financial coercion to donate those eggs already harvested) until such time as to be sure those ‘naive’ women who get ‘sucked in’ it would be fine.

This scenario isn’t the same as the ones in your example (which I also disagree with)

No and I have now said it at least two times about using already donated eggs left from other treatments being fine ( under proviso of no coercion)

And the women who have almost died due to egg donation included well educated women from university. And they still got ‘sucked in’ and almost lost their life… so tell us again how to determine the degree of coercion and mental health issues involved in making these donations or offering services. And how coerced or mentally ill women are not falling through these cracks at the moment

But I agree with you that it’s immoral for companies to target women specifically

And if ALL was limited to this (and again no emotional or financial coercion to donate those eggs already harvested) until such time as to be sure those ‘naive’ women who get ‘sucked in’ it would be fine

There will never be a way to know for sure about someone MH or emotional well being so not sure what you’d want as evidence

Your suggestions are more of the same and do not adequately safeguard women against coercion and mental health issues.

Signing a form…. I am pretty sure that is what they do now. Working well isn’t it?

And it doesn’t come close to mitigating the mental health risks to the child. The one who might not want to have been made the way they were; you know, exploiting women’s bodies.

There is a good reason surrogacy is illegal in many countries. Because it's not in the best interests of anyone involved except for the 'intended parents'.

It's abusive to the babies and exploits women. It's unconscionable in an ethical society

@Helleofabore

Your suggestions are more of the same and do not adequately safeguard women against coercion and mental health issues.

Signing a form…. I am pretty sure that is what they do now. Working well isn’t it?

And it doesn’t come close to mitigating the mental health risks to the child. The one who might not want to have been made the way they were; you know, exploiting women’s bodies.

So I’ll ask again, what would YOU like to see implemented?!

There will never ever be concrete guarantees in anything, so I’m interested to know your suggestion…

You seem to want the impossible.