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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To not understand the issue with surrogacy?

987 replies

Blackbird1234 · 30/12/2021 18:29

I've seen a few posts on some threads in this topic, from people condemning surrogacy. I don't understand why it is seen as bad, if all parties consent. Can anyone explain, please?

OP posts:
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13
ChattyLion · 31/12/2021 11:31

Welcome BlueBrush

Lovelyricepudding · 31/12/2021 11:33

Local authorities must be notified about private fostering arrangements (schools, NHS etc are required to do this where they suspect it) and local authorities are required to visit the child regularly and ensure it is a safe placement.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 31/12/2021 11:44

What YOU think personally, isn’t the holy grail of what is right or wrong. I accept this regarding my views too but I’m not ignorant to think I’m right, everyone else is wrong

hang on, so you can give your opinion because @Starcup but other people can't because they think they're right?

i'm not sure what point you're making?

ldontWanna · 31/12/2021 11:45

@NotBadConsidering

I remember there was an AMA type thread on MN a year or two ago where the surrogate came on and said she’d just had the embryo implanted for a gay male couple and was happy to answer any questions. She seemed clear it was her choice.

On the first page someone asked her what she would do if the couple died in a car crash before the baby was born. She answered that she hadn’t thought of that possibility Hmm.

Several pages later she came back to say she would give the baby up for adoption.

No forethought, embryo already in, eventualities not considered. That was her choice, to go ahead anyway.

Because , I think especially when it's for altruistic reasons rather than compensation, the emotive element ,the trust and bond is too high. It's hard when it's all being made about the fuzzy and warm feelings , how you're a hero and a star and doing this amazing things, pesky details like risks and various what if scenarios get overlooked. The focus is always on the outcome and the happiness and the baby.

Do I think women are unable to asses risk ? No.
Do I think there is full disclosure and emphasis on all the possible risk and that it's kept at the forefront in any and all discussions regarding surrogacy? No.

FannyCann · 31/12/2021 11:47

FannyCann if there is no genetic link then wouldn't that be the same as private fostering arrangements?

But there is genetic link in DIY arrangements - the father provides the speed and the "surrogate" mother self inseminates. Then, because magic word surrogacy it is handed over to the father and any partner. If they then want to tie it up legally they apply for parental order, severing the mother's rights, and confirming the commissioning parents as the legal parents, even issuing a new birth certificate to reflect this I believe.

crunchermuncher · 31/12/2021 11:47

@Lovelyricepudding

FannyCann if there is no genetic link then wouldn't that be the same as private fostering arrangements? I am also guessing in the ONS scenario that the mother would remain the mother with parental responsibility and liable for child maintenance should the father choose.
Please do read the thread as this has been discussed upthread at great length :)
ChattyLion · 31/12/2021 11:49

Because liberal feminism focused on a woman's right to choose rather than dismantling the system of oppression, we now get to choose which oppression we suffer, like a sort of "choose your own adventure" of debasement.

Excellent point Eishet that I have been struggling to express as clearly as this. Liberal feminism is a complete failure of politics as it only works for women who have plenty of autonomy and practical resources behind them to choose, but even then it doesn’t take account of social conditioning. It’s a misunderstanding of what consent actually is and how it works, just saying yes or going along with things without complaining doesn’t cover the full picture of what’s needed for fully informed consent.

FannyCann · 31/12/2021 11:51

So it's not a private fostering arrangement.

As far as I know the only safeguard currently is an alert midwife or health visitor or other HCP raising safeguarding concerns in the usual way.

FannyCann · 31/12/2021 11:52

I have read the thread @crunchermuncher but I must have missed that part of the discussion. To point me to the relevant posts please.

crunchermuncher · 31/12/2021 11:57

@Starcup

*You’re comparing car tyres and apples when talking about human trafficking. I get you need to use emotive language to get your point across but it’s too far fetched to take you seriously*

I mean 😂

Yes, a laughing face seems fully apporpriate when discussing, consent, coercion and abuse of power.

It seems odd to find amusement in such things.Hmm

NotBadConsidering · 31/12/2021 11:59

Because , I think especially when it's for altruistic reasons rather than compensation, the emotive element ,the trust and bond is too high. It's hard when it's all being made about the fuzzy and warm feelings , how you're a hero and a star and doing this amazing things, pesky details like risks and various what if scenarios get overlooked. The focus is always on the outcome and the happiness and the baby.

Great point.

When money is involved the boundaries become significantly blurred.

When money isn’t involved but emotion and relationships are, boundaries become significantly blurred.

There is no scenario where this can be played out without serious problems.

Like I said earlier, so called “successful” surrogacies have only happened because of sheer dumb luck.

And that “success” doesn’t factor in the child’s future. On that AMA, the surrogate seriously didn’t think that a child with two dads would be interested in asking who and where their mother was Confused.

crunchermuncher · 31/12/2021 12:07

@FannyCann

I have read the thread *@crunchermuncher* but I must have missed that part of the discussion. To point me to the relevant posts please.
Ah sorry that was in relation to Lovelyricepudding's comment to you, rather than me talking to you iyswim.

I meant there has been several pages of discussion upthread comparing and contrasting adoption and surrogacy so it would be a shame to go back over the same ground as there is a very interesting discussion developing around consent, coercion and freedom vs regulation and the rule of law.

But I might have misunderstood the point being discussed (am very tired), apologies if so.

Im racking my brain for something relevant by the philosopher John Locke about the intersection of rights but Im shattered and I cant quite dredge it up from the recesses of my brain.

HeyGirlHeyBoy · 31/12/2021 12:08

People have commented on kittens and puppies staying with their mother for the first 10 weeks or similar. Clearly this doesn't happen with surrogacy and tbh if it did, would the (altruistic) women do it in the first place / be able to give the child up in that scenario? I know a man currently waiting for the birth of his baby (UK). I have repeatedly said 'mother' when discussing the surrogate mother and he has never reacted to this. However he is upset his dh name won't be on the BC. He also told me with a smile that the baby's mother will be out of the scene immediately after birth. I feel most for the baby here. It's a work colleague and everyone is thrilled, he's an absolutely lovely, warm person but I have bit my tongue. It seems it is just not thought through.

Blackbird1234 · 31/12/2021 13:00

@FannyCann You said you'd like an update on the outcome from the OP (me), do you mean you'd like to hear which opinion I've formed based off this thread?

OP posts:
MrsPelligrinoPetrichor · 31/12/2021 13:00

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

People have commented on kittens and puppies staying with their mother for the first 10 weeks or similar. Clearly this doesn't happen with surrogacy and tbh if it did, would the (altruistic) women do it in the first place / be able to give the child up in that scenario? I know a man currently waiting for the birth of his baby (UK). I have repeatedly said 'mother' when discussing the surrogate mother and he has never reacted to this. However he is upset his dh name won't be on the BC. He also told me with a smile that the baby's mother will be out of the scene immediately after birth. I feel most for the baby here. It's a work colleague and everyone is thrilled, he's an absolutely lovely, warm person but I have bit my tongue. It seems it is just not thought through.
That's a prime example of male entitlement. My tongue would be in two!
RedToothBrush · 31/12/2021 13:08

You’re conflating soles and car Thor’s there when talking about human trafficking. I get you need to use engine language to get your point across but it’s too far fetched to take you seriously.

The last that have the example her that was a surrogate to her friend or sister was so far removed from anything to do with trafficking etc that it makes you look silly to compare them.

We know this shit happens and it’s an utter disgrace but let’s not make out that it’s always the case.

No I'm not conflating anything.

This is the UN definition of human trafficking:

Human Trafficking is the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of people through force, fraud or deception, with the aim of exploiting them for profit. Men, women and children of all ages and from all backgrounds can become victims of this crime, which occurs in every region of the world. The traffickers often use violence or fraudulent employment agencies and fake promises of education and job opportunities to trick and coerce their victims.

I do actually think that women and babies are very much victims in the way described above.

The coercion. The abuse of women - particularly abroad, but not solely (see above examples of women forced into signed really dubious legal agreements which sign over their bodily autonomy often under highly pressurised circumstances so they don't get the opportunity nor the legal advice to understand fully what they are signing). The extremely glossy PR that so often neglects the reality. The kids who are not thought of because of promise of a 'wonderful life'. And of course we shall ignore the 'dumped' and 'imperfect' babies that have no voice because the commissioners just fuck off and abandon them because they aren't up to the fairytale and therefore don't have 'value'. And we will ignore the abject lack of safeguarding that is applicable to fostering and adoption.

So yeah, I stand by EVERY WORD I say. And I think its very appropriate to use the term human trafficking - people need to have a long, hard think about it because it is certainly part of the surrogacy trade (numerous examples and why some countries have actively banned the practice because of how it was being run by unscruplous organisations and groups for profit).

The issue is this makes people be confronted with the reality that they don't want to engage with and consider because ethics and morally are, I quote, 'Boring'.

They like the idea of it being a 'Happy Ever After' all parties are juuuusttt finneeee because it suits their world outlook and they can carry on as before without critical thought or being compelled to challenge the PR myth or the 'progressive' Trojan Horses they ride on the back off.

It is always poor women and babies that are most at risk in surrogacy. Its always poor women and children who are the biggest targets for exploitation by rich people.

I think the phrases: 'baby selling' and 'human trafficking' should be used as much as possible to remind people of what is going on and how it very much is appropriate to do so.

What I find enlightening is just how much discussions about this are then shut down by the 'but altruistic' stuff or 'not in the UK we have laws' and then still avoid how similar is also true even in the UK. The avoidance of discussion how this particularly affects the poor or the vulnerable is a sight to behold. The avoidance of discussion of the need to safeguard is eye opening 'but they didn't have a gun to their head' therefore its ok. The only abuse that seems to really matter is violence. Not financial and not emotional. These are 'invisible' abuses that are merely 'inconvenient' to the rich and priviledged who don't have a concept of how easy it is to find yourself in this situation.

EXPLOITATION BY THE RICH. HUMAN TRAFFICKING.

Keep saying it.

OhHolyJesus · 31/12/2021 13:11

There is regulation in the countries where is available. Your point is moot as it’s not available here currently so there is no regulation as it doesn’t exist….
No, again you miss my point. We were talking about regulation and assisted dying is not available in the U.K. yes, but as you said, you suspect it may arrive on the U.K. and if it did I would say it is essential it is highly regulated, therefore making the point about regulation being applied to a socially controversial practice, which would be voted on in HoP by elected representatives by us, the general public. Do you see how this works? Making a comparison with another example to demonstrate a point is standard practice for discussion and debate. As was done ineffectively on the other active thread with IVF vs Surrogacy.

It’s irrelevant what you or I think, some people think it’s unethical to not allow a procedure and others think the polar opposite.

No. Everyone's opinion is welcome on this social media platform, no opinion is irrelevant but I would say an informed view is more helpful for discussion. When is comes to public consultations for law reform no view is irrelevant, though I wouldn't go so far to suggest that one carries more weight than another, however it's clear from FOIs that for surrogacy some views from vested interests (and controversial lobby groups) were prioritised above and beyond others for politically-driven reasons.

What YOU think personally, isn’t the holy grail of what is right or wrong. I accept this regarding my views too but I’m not ignorant to think I’m right, everyone else is wrong.

Wrong again I'm afraid. I'm not the authority on surrogacy, but I have read a lot and share what I think others may found useful. As you have seen and say, I'm apparently 'famous' for that reason. I don't think I'm right but I am able to argue my point and share examples to support my arguments. It's ok for you to ignore these examples, my points and dismiss my argument and imply that I consider myself or my view to be above others. Not so, but I am informed. What is right or wrong is subjective, hence why I ask questions of women who have had surrogate babies as I want to understand more.

For the sake of a debate, I'd like to know what you make of my earlier questions if you'd like to return to those? I'd like to stick to the subject of surrogacy and discuss those examples of surrogacy and the ethical questions posed by those examples rather than divert to whose opinion has more value. If you'd like to discuss assisted dying from a feminist perspective you could start a thread on this on the same board, or on feminist chat perhaps...

RedToothBrush · 31/12/2021 13:15

'Be nice'
Don't think critically.
Don't say nasty things.
Turn a blind eye because of all the unhappy infertile women (rich/western - poor ones just have to suck it up) and oppressed gay men. And what about their (already priviledged) rights?
Don't use 'bad words'
Don't spoil the PR and 'Happy Ever After' Myth

HOW VERY DARE YOU USE EMOTIVE WORDS!
(Yeah cos the monopoly on those belongs the infertile women and oppressed gay men to promote surrogacy already - the rights to those got bought out too).

Windywuss · 31/12/2021 13:22

@RedToothBrush it absolutely is in the UK if you have the money to go abroad, and that isn't just the Elton Johns etc. I know someone who went to Eastern Europe and went a way down the road of surrogacy before ruling it out because the child wouldn't look like him die to his ethnicity. They didn't seem to have any regard to the fact that they were going abroad because the UK wouldn't allow this process.

Our society is now utterly entitled. Anything and anyone can be found in the global market. But you're right. It's the dishonesty. Its doesn't fit the nice progressive narrative which hides the utter narcissism in our world.

Windywuss · 31/12/2021 13:22

*due

Runningupthecurtains · 31/12/2021 13:33

@FannyCann

This gay man who has been actively promoting surrogacy for single me. in the news, on TV couldn't make it clearer that he regards women as walking wombs who should provide babies to order. He said on TV "Because I am gay I don't have access to a womb". He also bemoaned the stress of going to surrogacy meet ups in the hope of connecting with a womb woman who was prepared to have a baby for him, complaining that "surrogates have all the power - they get to choose". How awful, right? Those mean women hoarding their reproductive rights and choosing who to have a baby for. Hmm
Fucking hell. Is he really saying round up some wimmens and let me decide which one I want to use as an incubator? Because that is how it reads. I can't imagine why there are women lining up to risk their physical, mental and reproductive health to provide a service to this poor deprived man HmmConfused
Runningupthecurtains · 31/12/2021 13:41

Why there aren't women lining up...

RedToothBrush · 31/12/2021 13:42

this poor deprived man

Stop using emotive language. Its not ffffaaaiiirrrr.

Ylvamoon · 31/12/2021 13:47

Be nice
Don't think critically
Don't say nasty things
Turn a blind eye because of all the unhappy infertile women (rich/western - poor ones just have to suck it up) and oppressed gay men. And what about their (already priviledged) rights?
Don't use 'bad words
Don't spoil the PR and 'Happy Ever After' Myth

Well said!

Starcup · 31/12/2021 13:50

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

What YOU think personally, isn’t the holy grail of what is right or wrong. I accept this regarding my views too but I’m not ignorant to think I’m right, everyone else is wrong

hang on, so you can give your opinion because @Starcup but other people can't because they think they're right?

i'm not sure what point you're making?

But I’m not judging people that decide to become surrogates……

Imagine having the nerve to stand there and say how disgusting it is….

Imagine saying that to someone that has been a surrogate for their infertile best friend…. Hmm that wound that some nerve!

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