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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Leaf Arbuthnot in the Times

42 replies

Igneococcus · 25/12/2021 20:47

I can't even think of a proper summary of this:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/21af8f0c-641e-11ec-b5e6-0d64a8c5ca0d?shareToken=6c4dc036e9c4c28f457a1f1b97d450c8

OP posts:
bordermidgebite · 25/12/2021 21:13

Trans people are harmless people who suffer much

Supporting woman's rights is naturally transphobic

That still doesn't mean you should cancel JK

Gastonia · 25/12/2021 22:10

I thought this was an interesting sentence in the article.
Like many millennials, I’m a little bemused by her fixation on trans rights, given the tiny size of the community and the hell that trans people often go through.
She sees it as centring trans people rather than women. I guess she's quite young, has no children, and has led a sheltered life.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 26/12/2021 01:01

I ask Forstater about the view that the books are about tolerance and love; that they celebrate difference, so Rowling’s wish to exclude trans women from some women’s spaces seems odd. “I see it the other way,” Forstater says. “I think the books are a story about an authoritarian capture of institutions and about the fightback of the truth.”

LOVE this quote from Maya. It’s a predictably shite question, a question that obfuscates as usual that the issue is about excluding male people from women’s spaces because they’re male, not because they’re trans. And Maya’s response is just excellent. She just doesn’t entertain the bullshit, and absolutely nails it.

Brava, Ms Forstater!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/12/2021 01:05

"Imagine the amount of trans women who have suffered abuse in changing rooms because of what she’s said"

So zero, then?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/12/2021 01:09

Brava, Ms Forstater!

Absolutely Thanks

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 26/12/2021 02:06

@Ereshkigalangcleg

"Imagine the amount of trans women who have suffered abuse in changing rooms because of what she’s said"

So zero, then?

Yup
NotBadConsidering · 26/12/2021 06:15

I’m a little bemused by her fixation on trans rights, given the tiny size of the community and the hell that trans people often go through.

Bizarrely, this quote comes from towards the end of the article, after the author mapped it all out: Rowling’s essay, the loss of the word “woman”, the treatment of Maya, Kathleen Stock, the abuse. Why “bemused” Hmm? Kathleen her self says:

“It’s just really comforting to know that someone like her has your back,” she says. Rowling has “moved the needle” on the subject of women’s rights, she adds. “Most of the world can only interpret what she’s said as transphobic, but she’s willing to be misunderstood as she accepts it as a by-product of what she wants to do — which is stand up for women, girls and lesbians.”

But the author is still bemused?! A tad disingenuous methinks.

Vanishun · 26/12/2021 06:40

"Tiny community".

So we're rewriting guidance everywhere, changing the legal definition of women, removing the word woman whenever we can, and letting men into women's sports and prisons across the world, why? Since it's such a tiny little itsy bitsy harmless community?

Igmum · 26/12/2021 07:18

I read it as a tad disingenuous too. Our Leaf (Leaf???) wants to get published in the Times and knows it's take on these issues but also wants to ram in a few pro trans claims, hence the focus on countless trans women being harassed in changing rooms entirely because of JKR but no mention of women and children being assaulted, fearing assault or having unwanted penises waved in their faces because that never happens

JulesJules · 26/12/2021 08:11

The comments are very cheering though.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 26/12/2021 08:49

imagine the number of trans women who have been abused in changing rooms because if what she said

we have to imagine it because it’s not happened

Leaf, daughter of a Tory Baronet, already has ab established career as a journalist, authors & critic but publishing is fickle so one must always keen up one’s pro trans anti womenswear rights stance amirite?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 26/12/2021 08:49

Womens not womenswear tho thete are finês in anti womenswear too Grin

RoyalCorgi · 26/12/2021 08:50

@Igmum

I read it as a tad disingenuous too. Our Leaf (Leaf???) wants to get published in the Times and knows it's take on these issues but also wants to ram in a few pro trans claims, hence the focus on countless trans women being harassed in changing rooms entirely because of JKR but no mention of women and children being assaulted, fearing assault or having unwanted penises waved in their faces because that never happens
I looked her up. She's had a fairly stellar journalistic career, and has degrees from Cambridge and Yale. So it's not about getting published in the Times.

Yet she hasn't, at a very fundamental level, understood what's going on. That this isn't about the so-called tiny minority of trans people, but about the fact that any man can identify as a woman, and that women are being forced to go along with it, to the extent that a rape victim has to refer to her rapist as "she" in court. It's telling that Leaf doesn't once mention Rowling's latest intervention about the Scottish police's decision to refer to rapists as women if they identify as such.

She also doesn't seem to have understood that the Maya Forstater case was not about being nasty to trans people but the fact that a woman was sacked for stating the truth, namely that it's not possible to change sex.

It seems extraordinary to me that someone with such a high-powered education could be so slow to understand the basic facts of the subject she's writing about.

RoyalCorgi · 26/12/2021 08:51

Leaf, daughter of a Tory Baronet

Ah. That pretty much explains everything.

Igneococcus · 26/12/2021 08:53

That might be my favourite comment:

"The headline should be ‘From hero to super-hero’"

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 26/12/2021 09:00

I think that's a decent article. Accurate in its facts and including a range of voices. I'm quite clear at the end what the writer thinks but they've given space to a range of views. I would choose a bit more focus on first principles but it's understandable why not (because they're inarguable in themselves, you end up buried in paragraphs about chromosomes and I guess they want to be able to argue it). I clearly see at the end that for the author it's about which team you want to be part of, but they're reasonable about the other team.

TheWeeDonkey · 26/12/2021 09:24

While I agree that JKR is not "fixated on trans issues" but is fiercely supportive on women's issues. It seems this is something that confuses many people.

The thing that confuses me is the insistence that in countries where self ID is legal there have been no impacts on women and girls.
If Self ID has no impact then whats the point of it?
How do we record the harms of self ID on women and girls if the person doing the harm is recorded as a woman?
Its a kind of Catch 22 situation I can't get my head around.

Floisme · 26/12/2021 09:33

Yes, Leaf makes her own views clear but I commend her for representing a range of voices.

The main thing that struck me - and not for the first time - is how emotionally invested these 30+ year-olds are in a piece of children's fantasy fiction. It's a testament to JKR's skill as a writer for sure but also kind of troubling I think.

bordermidgebite · 26/12/2021 09:33

In which countries could I self Id as a man and ( without needing harmful treatment) be seen as a man? Like no pay and promotion penalty, reduced probability of rape? He has data to prove this ?

In which countries could I self ID as a man and find sanitary bins in all toilet facilities?

Is he being truthful?

Barbarantia · 26/12/2021 09:51

I'm beginning to worry about this tendency for everything to be labelled "abusive".
Challenge someone in a changing room == abuse.
Parent checking up on child == abuse
Have an honest difficult conversation == abuse

ChattyLion · 26/12/2021 09:51

Threats are always unacceptable. I think this just reminds us that many people can tolerate their own cognitive dissonance and lack of integrity quite well if the personal benefits of doing that are high enough. Others will stand up for principle despite serious personal costs. Sheep and goats. If reality and facts are inconvenient they can be ignored by the sheep until the sheep feel they’re really personally impacted. Goats speak up including for others.

Also minus points to anyone including journalists who over-characterise the differences between generations. That’s all just marketing. Always has been. It’s really unhelpful that young people are always being told they are kind and progressive (or that they should/must be!). Today’s youngsters, are tomorrow’s oldsters, and just as fallible and vulnerable as any other generation has been or will be.

All people of all ages can be kind and principled, and aggressive, and selfish, and lazy and gullible. But unless very privileged and lucky, it’s safe to say that older people will have had more life experiences to draw on than younger people do. Will be ever thus.

I hate this lazy unrealistic pressures on young people to solve the climate emergency or huge social problems because they care a lot about it. That is just an easy way for most other people to kick it all down the road themselves and not do anything themselves to tackle it collectively. Let the kids worry about all that. A dangerously selfish position to take in late stage capitalism which ignores the economic and other power disparities that are growing and entrenching all the time.

A genuine key difference between generations is that social media now exists which can’t be underestimated as a driver for human behaviour. Social media makes our ephemeral or undeveloped thinking permanent. That has a divisive and anxiety provoking effect for as long as it remains such an important part of so many peoples’ lives. Although social media can also help to inform and unite us while our lives get busier, which can be really positive. Trade offs.

In the UK only the mid thirties and older can remember before social media really took off here in our own lives with the uptake of mobile phones. So that’s a massive genuine generational difference that we do all need to navigate together. Social media is helping to go shape all of our opinions whenever we began using it. But real life still has to be lived. I think if we went back to many of these outraged Harry Potter fans in ten years’ time, due their own IRL experience accruing they’d say something different.

The older people who bring up JKR (in my small sample of people who have said anything to me about it) have all said she’s just been standing up for women’s rights as a survivor of DV and there’s nothing wrong with doing that. From one, the perspicacious 90s saying, ‘they need to get a life’ was also used about the people who feel the need to object to JKR standing up for women and children. Xmas Biscuit

DoctorTwo · 26/12/2021 12:56

They see her Rowling, they hating.

Borrowed from Twitter.

namitynamechange · 26/12/2021 16:05

@Floisme

Yes, Leaf makes her own views clear but I commend her for representing a range of voices.

The main thing that struck me - and not for the first time - is how emotionally invested these 30+ year-olds are in a piece of children's fantasy fiction. It's a testament to JKR's skill as a writer for sure but also kind of troubling I think.

As someone in a similar age range can I just say NAMALT (not all millennials are like that). But with the Harry Potter love - I found the books a really welcome place of escapism at an age which is often quite lonely/tough to go through (even if you have a very "privileged" life, growing pains/loneliness as a pre-teen is quite normal). As a result I will always have a soft spot for the books - I am sure that is the case for many people who grew up with them. I don't think that translates into the author somehow owing me however or having a duty to me a morally steadfast person. However, the fact she IS a morally steadfast person as it turns out is extremely welcome...
KeflavikAirport · 26/12/2021 16:44

Woman with massive social capital in "can't imagine what life is like for vulnerable women without social capital" shocker

MissMinutes24 · 26/12/2021 17:11

Ah, little Leaf Arbuthnot whose brother and daddy also work for the dame newspaper and who basically was parachuted into a cushy job at the Sunday Times about 7 years ago out of university.

Who gives a fuck what she thinks about anything? Little Leafy doesn't ever have to worry about sharing a cell with a male rapist who says he's a woman