People are being mean to Caroline Nokes when she's just trying to be kind

[RoyalCorgi]

That's the gist, but if you feel so minded you can read it in full:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/23/why-am-i-being-abused-for-trying-to-improve-gender-recognition-process

@Thelnebriati

I get that its an opinion piece but doesnt the Guardian still have to fact check, or correct errors?

Based on their Wi Spa reporting, evidently not.

I suppose if there's no logical / factual / scientific underpinning to an ideology then it''s inevitable that anything written about it is likely to be full of the same factually incorrect, ideologically compromised woowoo?

Well this really. You cant make sense out of nonsense.

@Thelnebriati

I get that its an opinion piece but doesnt the Guardian still have to fact check, or correct errors?

They probably assumed that since the Women and Equalities committee had just published a report about reform of the GRA, that the chair of the committee would actually know what she was talking about.

Just reading the posts about annulment.
Aware of issues etc not as well as trans widows obv but think up to date.

Just thought, sure (in fact positive) this has come up before. But it's just all over the shop.

Thinking situations where married ages, children prob older/ young adult as male transition middle- late night age is v common situation.

So get married say 20s.
Babies, mum dad, dad babies pretty much always dad's surname/ double barrel with his.
Family, kids linked to GPs and other relatives his side. Through dad. He's uncle etc maybe to siblings kids etc.
20 years whatever of all those ties.

GRC. Change sex retrospectively (!!!!) on vital personal legal docs - birth cert, marriage cert.

Same sex marriage illegal though.. To avoid that issue arising IRL and not ready with politically considered solution.

Birth cert-
Document generally looked after for years by parents, received when new baby wow emotions etc. Dunno about anyone else but I come across in drawer sometimes go a bit soppy. Changing something fundamental like that is not a nothing. Old ones what happens? Presumably preference is destroyed? Or have to send them back as part of GRC application?
Ouch. Very big ouch.

Same sex marriage issue so existing marriage needs to be... Something. Got around. And before GRC. Ok. Divorce or annul before GRC.

Divorce... Doesn't mean marriage never existed! So that's... A bit of a handwave away thing. Makes no sense logically.
If male birth cert changed to girl, and divorced ie were married.
Then gay marriage. Obv.
So... A half arsed bodge. About some of our most fundamental legal mechanisms.

Annulment.
After years and years, never married? That's total emotional headfuck.
Setting the date, arranging whether big do or small registers. Witnesses, registrar. Getting ready, looking into eyes, promising love, care, for life... Photos. Happy. New chapter of life.... Never happened. Not married when did anything over next decades. Lied on insurance applications? Census? To family and friends? To children? Annulment means marriage invalid or void. As if never married.
What a huge headfuck. For so many people.

In general, in society.

Annulling marriage means marriage was never legal, did not exist. That's massive. If I said look DH. I'm trans getting GRC. You don't want to have docs changed so married a man 25 years ago. Annulment. Marriage never existed.
Just I mean what? That's... A huge legal lie. It was valid. It existed for 25 years. So much happened...

No, it's a voidable marriage, not a void marriage so it isn't as if it never existed.

Divorce is generally preferable but it isn't an option for everyone.

This mess of things that fundamental, legally vv important FACTS, ones that mark huge events (what's bigger than being born?!).

And that are supposed to be permanent timestamps of key events in a person's life.

Can be altered, for the benefit of one individual.
Even though these documents, the events that record have huge meaning...
Generally most of all to.. 'people with vaginas' and children.

His mum his wife his kids.
Patriarchal hierarchy writ large.
And still seen in so many small and large ways still.
This is one of the in your face ones.

Sorry tinsel read the page and missed free section headings-

Interestingly in my line of work, voidable is used for something else in legal way.

Void is was not legal to begin with- same as govt bit for annulment.
Voidable means something comes to light that means one or the other parties would not have agreed to it had they known. Different term but same result and wording, rendered void, things set back to how they were before happened, seen as not having happened.

Dunno if seen same here. Voidable means can be rendered void though, the language says that.

Gov-

'Your marriage is not legally valid - ‘void’ marriages
You can annul a marriage if it was not legally valid in the first place, for example:

you’re closely related to the person you married
one or both of you were under 16
one of you was already married or in a civil partnership
If a marriage was never legally valid, the law says that it never existed.

However, you may need legal paperwork (a ‘decree of nullity’) to prove this - for example if you want to get married again.

Your marriage is ‘voidable’
You can annul a marriage for a number of reasons, such as:

it was not consummated - you have not had sexual intercourse with the person you married since the wedding (does not apply for same sex couples)
you did not properly consent to the marriage - for example you were forced into it
the other person had a sexually transmitted disease (STD) when you got married
your spouse was pregnant by someone else when you got married
one spouse is in the process of transitioning to a different gender
As with divorce, your marriage legally exists until you annul it using one of these reasons.'

HOWEVER I am googling I don't know in this case and I know others know far far better

Oops sorry!

Yes voidable it stops when order granted.

Vv sorry.

If annuled. Impact financial, pensions etc? Is that done same as divorce?

The fact remains that it's just a huge huge range of legal handwaving, retrospectively fundamentally alters key legal facts, with huge emotional fallout for in practice mostly wife, mum (the one who gave birth which YES means something) and children, then wider family...

Patriarchy to the max.

And then...

The affronery, the GALL. To get really arsey about how the one ALL THIS HAS BEEN DONE FOR still isn't getting precisely what they want. And describing as spousal veto aka women can be vicious, selfish b*tches FFS, this situation is just mean...

Sorry. Just. Awful.

Trans widows should be listened to.
Course. Nope.
Decent wives are supportive unphased all through, stand by their... Penis owner.

@PamDenick

I blame Hayley Cropper… the lovable Coronation Street character tapped about in her ill fitting clothes and we were all sympathetic to such a warm and charming character avoiding the reality of their birth certificate and NI id. Now, would we as a nation have felt the same if the character had been played by a natal born man?

Have you seen this by the wonderful Mumsnetter @RachelBosenterfer ?

"Hayley Cropper – Coronation Street’s Trojan Horse"
herriotts.wordpress.com/2020/06/11/the-usual-suspects-hayley-cropper/

ps. Check out Rachel's other "Usual Suspects" - these articles are seriously well-researched and well-written!

Some of them originally on her Wordpress blog have been re-published on her Substack:

"The Usual Suspects - Jan Morris"
rachelbosenterfer.substack.com/p/the-usual-suspects--f9c
(Republished)

"The Usual Suspects - Annie Wallace"
rachelbosenterfer.substack.com/p/the-usual-suspects-

"The Usual Suspects – Stephen Whittle"
herriotts.wordpress.com/2020/05/16/the-usual-suspects-steven-whittle/

"The usual suspects – Sally Hines"
herriotts.wordpress.com/2018/10/13/the-usual-suspects-sally-hines/

She has also published some of these and other articles on various GC-friendly platforms (eg. Uncommon Ground).

Ah! Brilliant. I’ll check them out…

The article has been amended following a successful complaint by Trans Widows Voices

Well done!

Well done

Well done. Thank you to Transwidows Voices. It was their collective, calm and dignified voices that truly alerted me to this madness…

Although it is mad that it needed a correction. It’s not a journalist who got something wrong in the course of their research and write up its the MP responsible for knowing exactly all the facts and details. What else does she not know accurately and doesn’t understand?

Well done

One can only assume that she didn't even read the report produced by the committee that she chaired. The report gets the basic facts right about the Spousal Exit Clause even if we disagree with its conclusions.

Well done Tinsel; voice of reason and effective complaints. 💐

It is disappointing that people in the position of CN cannot read their own reports 😬

Thank you so much, Bosky! Your kind words have given me new determination to get on with the next Usual Suspect on my list!

@RachelBosenterfer

Thank you so much, Bosky! Your kind words have given me new determination to get on with the next Usual Suspect on my list!

Ooooo! RachelBosenterfer - I can't wait to see who that is!!

=======

@TinselAngel congratulations on The Guardian correction!

Just reading through your "Usual Suspects" they are really good, thank you for posting the links.