'Women's Health - Let's talk about it' - Survey

[Justme56]

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/womens-health-strategy-call-for-evidence/outcome/results-of-the-womens-health-lets-talk-about-it-survey

Whilst I am aware that another user has highlighted this with reference to an article in the Guardian and the importance of the collection of data based on sex, I am making a separate post with the actual survey because, in my opinion, it covers a massive amount of information about how women are treated in many aspects of society. Information on sex education, toilet provision, work & careers etc.

I have only read bits but some of the comments are distressing (yes it comes with a 'trigger' warning). Also reference to 'ciswomen'.

Even the demographics tell us something. the 5 topics most respondents want DHSC to prioritise are gynaecological conditions; fertility etc, the menopause; menstrual health & mental health. This varies slightly be demographics for example black respondents were 5 times more likely to select diabetes for inclusion in the strategy than other ethnic groups. When it comes to gender identity (people who identity with a gender different from their sex registered at birth - which I am assuming mean trans men), the health impacts of violence against women and girls featured in their top 5 rather than the menopause. Compared with cisgender respondents, we also found that they were 4 times more likely to select autism and neurodiversity for inclusion in the strategy, and 3 times more likely to select disability - all interesting information.

And we know who will be listened to and who will benefit.

Hint: Not females.

I have only read bits but some of the comments are distressing (yes it comes with a 'trigger' warning). Also reference to 'ciswomen'.

The word cisgender is littered through this report. For each of the various health issues there is a paragraph that highlights how much more comfortable "cisgender" women are talking to a healthcare professional about that issue than those who identify as "a different gender to their sex registered at birth".

I completed the questionnaire and I don't remember being asked about my "gender identity" or if I identified as "cisgender" or even how I identified at all.

From the report...

"Cisgender: Relating to or being a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth. For example, a person who was registered female at birth, and who identifies as a woman"

"Nearly all respondents (99%) said they, or the woman they had in mind, are cisgender – meaning that their gender identity matches their sex registered at birth. In comparison, 1% said they identify with a gender different to their sex at birth (for example, they were registered female at birth, but identify as a man). The ONS mid-year estimates do not capture this level of information, so a comparison is not possible."

Yes the "cis" jarred throughout. Shame they couldn't include the voices of trans men without this.

Otherwise, it's good to see personal testimonies quote. Women's Health Clinics would be a great idea, but as they seem to have closed all the walk-in family planning places I doubt that will be happening anytime soon.

@Beowulfa

Yes the "cis" jarred throughout. Shame they couldn't include the voices of trans men without this.

Otherwise, it's good to see personal testimonies quote. Women's Health Clinics would be a great idea, but as they seem to have closed all the walk-in family planning places I doubt that will be happening anytime soon.

I agree. It would have been correct to use the terms "transwomen" and "women" but, no, they had to kowtow.

* It would have been correct to use the terms "transwomen" and "women" but, no, they had to kowtow.*

I am assuming you meant transmen and women , as transmen have female bodies while transwomen have male bodies and health needs.

I was confused as to whether the ‘different to’ included transwomen or transmen or both. Separating them would have been useful.

Just to clarify the word trans is an adjective that helps describe someone's gender identity, and it should be treated like other adjectives. So trans woman or trans man instead of transwoman or transman.

@thequeerteacher

Just to clarify the word trans is an adjective that helps describe someone's gender identity, and it should be treated like other adjectives. So trans woman or trans man instead of transwoman or transman.

Is it not prefix?

Nope cause then it would be trans-man or trans-woman

It's a prefix, yep, Lemon.

We sometimes also need to use 'male', for clarity, too. Many people think 'transwoman' means someone who is biologically female. The terminology can be confusing to the average person. And of course, pretending 'trans' is an adjective risks even greater confusion, as a transwoman is by definition not female. That's the whole meaning of the word!

@thequeerteacher

Just to clarify the word trans is an adjective that helps describe someone's gender identity, and it should be treated like other adjectives. So trans woman or trans man instead of transwoman or transman.

If you are using trans as an adjective then "trans woman" would refer to a trans female, a female that is trans.

I assume that's not what you mean by trans woman.

Definitely a prefix not an adjective because a transwoman is a male person who identifies as a woman and not a woman who is transgender.

@thequeerteacher

Just to clarify the word trans is an adjective that helps describe someone's gender identity, and it should be treated like other adjectives. So trans woman or trans man instead of transwoman or transman.

Transwomen / transman works fine. 👍

@thequeerteacher

Just to clarify the word trans is an adjective that helps describe someone's gender identity, and it should be treated like other adjectives. So trans woman or trans man instead of transwoman or transman.

They know; they just avoid using the correct construction because they won't refer trans women as "women" and trans men likewise, so they prefer the construction that implies it's an entirely separate word. And then they complain about everyone else getting it wrong as if they're not the ones getting it wrong. Welcome to Mumsnet.

They know; they just avoid using the correct construction because they won't refer trans women as "women" and trans men likewise, so they prefer the construction that implies it's an entirely separate word. And then they complain about everyone else getting it wrong as if they're not the ones getting it wrong. Welcome to Mumsnet.

Correct construction? The use of trans as an adjective is a construction introduced over the last couple of years by activists who wish to change the meaning of the word " woman", so it that can be used to describe a person who is not a member of the female sex. Transwoman has always been the descriptor of a person who ,despite being male, identifies as being a member of the opposite sex.

That is pretty much it, yes Blueberry. On this part of the site most people use the words woman /transwoman with their usual/ most commonly used meanings to refer to the female sex in humans in the case of "woman" and someone of the male sex but who has transitioned with the intention that the world regards them as a woman in the case of "transwoman".

There are however new meanings for the words woman and man, which I think Blueberry favours, where the word woman doesn't refer to a sex in humans but to a feeling and the word trans woman therefore refers to someone who has that feeling but is also trans. The trans bit though refers to the fact that though that person has the feeling called woman in this nomenclature, they have been wrongly called a man by other people. That labelling was wrong because they have never had the man feeling. As a result of that wrong labelling they are trans. That the label of man was applied on the basis of sex and not a feeling is irrelevant, they are still trans. So you would be a man and a transwoman under the language favoured on this part of the site (and I would argue used by almost every one until very recently), whilst also being a woman and a trans woman if using the new definition of the word woman.

The new definitions are difficult in my view in part because we very commonly use, and need to use, the words men and women to describe sex in humans in society and for law and policy, so the fact that the new nomenclature uses those exact same terms to mean something different, causes communication problems as well as confusing law and policy. The other difficulty is that though the new definitions seek to disassociate the words from the sexes most people use them to describe, they need simultaneously to retain that association as otherwise the concept of being trans cannot exist.

The need activists have to redefine trans as an adjective comes from the same rationale that demands the erasure of the word " woman" when referring to women's reproductive role or women's health issues
The idea that the word woman refers to a person of the female sex has to be removed ,as it cannot include male people who wish to identify as " women".

@thequeerteacher

Just to clarify the word trans is an adjective that helps describe someone's gender identity, and it should be treated like other adjectives. So trans woman or trans man instead of transwoman or transman.

By your definition, a ‘trans woman’ is a woman who is trans, ie presenting as a man. Actually, ‘trans’ is a prefix. Therefore in grammatical terms, Men who wish to be perceived as women are transwomen. They are not a subset of women, they are a subset of men.

@BlueberryCheezecake @thequeerteacher

Call it what you want, use any language you choose. It doesn’t change the material reality that people cannot change sex.
I can call my cat a dog, my car an aeroplane, my husband a pixie. They’re still my cat, car and husband. See?

Happy to use the word 'trans' as an adjective provided that someone can supply a coherent, non-circular definition of the word 'woman' other than 'adult human female'.

If one of our posters could answer the question 'what is a woman?' I'm sure many of us would be happy to change our language on this.

So far we've only ever heard circular definitions (e.g. 'a woman is anyone who feels like a woman') or slightly bonkers definitions (e.g. 'a woman is a formless constellation').

If you are not sure whether your definition makes sense, replace the word 'woman' with something completely made up, e.g. 'squigglysquog'.

'A squigglysquog is anyone who feels like a squigglysquog' does not help anyone. 'A squigglysquog is a formless constellation' also makes no sense.

Until someone can explain to me what a woman is and why this definition includes (a) all mtf transitioners and (b) all adult human females except ftm transitioners and non-binary people, I cannot accept the term 'trans' as an adjective.

I am open to hearing alternative definitions of the word 'woman' though and am willing to change my stance on this if such a definition can be provided.

Until then it is 'transwoman' or 'mtf transitioner'.

The thing is though Edge, while I agree that the new definition of woman and man needs work, even if there was a coherent definition we would still need the words to refer to sex. Through memorable history (and in law and policy) the words used to describe sex have been man and woman. So while understanding the new definitions would be helpful, it wouldn't solve the problems caused by seeking to redefine existing words, in particular where that happens retrospectively, where existing laws and policy are read with the new meanings or when there is no acknowledgement that other people are not using those new definitions.

I think that language is one of the reasons that some people, knowing very little about the trans issue, are happy to “be kind” (see also Hayley Cropper from Coronation Street played by a woman). Because it’s quite difficult to understand who is being referred to:

Trans man = male with a trans identity = transwoman

Trans woman = female with a trans identity = transman

And that was difficult to type due to autocorrect; I had to keep manually removing the spaces.

Yes, Nothing. We need clarity. The fact is that when we differentiate between man and woman we need to know people's sex, biological sex. That is what drives a person's body, is coded into our DNA and is the necessary information. Gender is as relevant and useful as star signs.

This is why every time we discuss these things we have to do a tedious parsing of what someone actually means by a 'trans woman' - do they mean a female who thinks they are male or vice versa.

'Transwoman' is a compromise on my part - I'd prefer a definition that didn't include 'woman' or 'female' at all, as it would be more accurate and truthful.
I use 'transwoman' as the words I think are more appropriate are said to be hurtful and I don't like to hurt people unnecessarily.

... also MN tends to remove them :)

It is so refreshing to read a whole govt document about women and referring to females.