Can someone help me responses to pronouns

[Nailsbythesea]

I read on here a really good response to be asked for pronouns that quoted the stonewall own policy back at them - that it was your right not to be forced to disclose your pronouns - I’ve had a hunt and found helpful replies but I can’t find the one that quotes the equality act or was it stonewall own policy or it might have been a law I can’t remember and I can’t find it!!

My teenager is constantly being asked to declare her pronouns and the group are constantly putting them back in every time she deletes them - the queen bee is demanding to know why she keeps deleting it and that quote would be so helpful (queen bee is a nightmare and although daughter stands up to her she is making life difficult for her’ but there was a wonderful post not too long ago saying …. Equality policy section x says I should not be pressured to disclose my gender etc ….. or words to that effect and I can’t find it for her - can anyone help or direct me to the thread?

I had hunted around and found great responses such as the one below ….. but I can’t find the one that quotes a policy etc … anyone able to help?

Thanks 🙏

'Why do you want to know, isn't that personal and private information. Are you asking people to out themselves, are you going to ask my sexual orientation next? This is highly inappropriate and I shall be sure to record this on my feedback to help improve future course content.'

What 'group' are you referring to? Who wants to know her pronouns?

It's one of the so called Yogyakata Principles - which seem to hold some weight in this debate although as far as I am aware they were put together by an unaffiliated group.

I see if I can find the one you're after

It's Principle 6 (f)

P6 is the right to privacy

(f)Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others.

yogyakartaprinciples.org/

Sorry this is a friendship group - not that it matters. But it doesn’t really matter what group? Every time someone new joins the group, school, social activity - they start by insisting you state your name and then pronouns in turn….. around the group. She doesn’t need advice on her friends.

Don’t say get new friends or confront the school - as they are all doing it at her school and it’s peer pressure out of school. The queen bee has changed her name 4 times, and has changed her sexuality 5 times so insisted all cinema trips etc are started with a refresher of pronouns etc DD has refused and queen bee is putting the pressure on. She wants to good response to shut it down. She’s very very articulate and ignoring it or not going is not the answer. She wants to tackle it head on!

The one I read was really good and I’d just like to find it again ….DD doesn’t just want to say no. Although she can and has in the past. But she actually wants legal arguments to throw back at them and quote policy and law etc

Good for your DD. She sounds bright and non-conformist.

[quote NancyDrawed]It's Principle 6 (f)

P6 is the right to privacy

(f)Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others.

yogyakartaprinciples.org/[/quote]
Thanks that’s the one I read thank you. If anyone has any legal quotes etc that she can use that would’ve fab but @NancyDrawed that’s the one I was thinking of. DD is very articulate and thinking of law / politics as a career so she wants to get to grips with this. But rather then no and stopping socialising she wants to fight this from the inside out

Thanks though very appreciated

Good for your daughter. I think it’s amazing that she refuses to be bullied into something she’s uncomfortable with.

@NancyDrawed - really interesting post - thank you.

Less compelling than Nancy’s post, but still providing a legal framework - there is this judgement, which affirms the right NOT to have an opinion:

“32. Under both international and European human rights law, the right to freedom of thought, opinion and expression protects non-believers as well as believers and extends to the freedom not to hold and not to have to express opinions. The rights to freedom of thought, opinion and expression are proclaimed by articles 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948.”

JUDGMENT
RT (Zimbabwe) and others (Respondents) v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Appellant)
KM (Zimbabwe) (FC) (Appellant) v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent)

Supremecourt.uk

*The right not to have, and not to have to express an opinion, I should have said.

God, are these really friends at all? I'm gobsmacked that she's feeling the need to quote legal frameworks to justify herself.

Would this help?:

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-8-respect-your-private-and-family-life

Is the Queen Bee assuming your DD's pronouns?

Compelled speech, or forcing someone to recite something they don't believe in, is counter to freedom of expression/belief/though. That would probably be HRA.

Article 9: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance.

Article 10 of the Human Rights Act: Freedom of expression

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

Article 14: Prohibition of discrimination

The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en

Note that 'his' includes 'her'. Because our legislation is still YET to include females as human beings.

Queen bee sounds like a bully with a huge ego.
Good on your DD for standing up for herself.

Adding pronouns is a declaration of belief in the religion of gender ideology.

@FortVictoria

Good for your daughter. I think it’s amazing that she refuses to be bullied into something she’s uncomfortable with.

@NancyDrawed - really interesting post - thank you.

Less compelling than Nancy’s post, but still providing a legal framework - there is this judgement, which affirms the right NOT to have an opinion:

“32. Under both international and European human rights law, the right to freedom of thought, opinion and expression protects non-believers as well as believers and extends to the freedom not to hold and not to have to express opinions. The rights to freedom of thought, opinion and expression are proclaimed by articles 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948.”

JUDGMENT
RT (Zimbabwe) and others (Respondents) v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Appellant)
KM (Zimbabwe) (FC) (Appellant) v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent)

Supremecourt.uk

This is useful thanks

[quote ArabellaScott]Compelled speech, or forcing someone to recite something they don't believe in, is counter to freedom of expression/belief/though. That would probably be HRA.

Article 9: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance.

Article 10 of the Human Rights Act: Freedom of expression

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

Article 14: Prohibition of discrimination

The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en[/quote]
Also useful thanks

@FreddieDeLaHay

Is the Queen Bee assuming your DD's pronouns?

queen bee has changed her name on the school system etc for at least the 3 rd time and is actually currently called ‘Queen’ but demands to be known as they / them. They are now demanding as a non binary person to have non binary toilets at school etc.

6 months ago when she started Queen bee demanded everyone’s pronouns and insisted they all wore badges at school. DD refused but since there have been a multitude of occasions where they are singling DD out in a group chat etc expressing ‘confusion’ that DD is not ‘being open and honest about her gender and sexuality etc’ some has been done ‘publicly in group what’s app groups’ and some by private messages - queen bee wants to dictate the party line and act as the party whip to get everyone on the same mantra - a lot of the other girls are not as strong as DD and don’t want to be bullied. DD is not afraid of her but is trying to play a longer game.

For example queen bee organised secret Santa giving out all the names. She dictated the amounts to be spent £20 and the day of exchange. At secret Santa day - she managed to get 3 secret Santa presents due to a ‘mix up’ and she was DD secret Santa and ‘forgot her present’ and other girls had no present. They were meeting in the evening so DD asked me to take her shopping to buy the ones with nothing a gift using her pocket money - we spoke about it and although we both felt queen bee should have given up 2 of her presents - and DD asked her to she refused. Dd asked me to buy secret Santa gifts as her ‘Christmas present from me’ and explained her reasons - these other friends have been supportive and kind and other things - so we went shopping etc and other girls appreciated it. Queen Bee gave DD her ‘forgotten gift’ in the evening a hand made friendship bracelet for DD but had insisted on shop brought £20 presents when she set the task ……. Dd is letting them ‘have enough rope to hang them selves’ the scales fell from her eyes quickly but she is waiting the letting them others come to the same conclusion by themselves!

Other classics included queen asking DD which one of the girls in the group she liked the most - DD refused to answer queen bee asked her if she was a lesbian and dd refused to answer etc and queen bee expresses her rights, gender, sexuality etc shouting about trans rights etc and then ….. calls others things like ‘you lesbian trans bitch’ DD calls her out on it. Screen shots it and then queen says ‘they’ are joking. DD is calling them out and keeping a log and the others are turning ….. I’ve told DD to hold the line. Yes she could be told to find Jew friends but she does numerous activities out of school and has lots of friends with those - this girl was new and then didn’t get enough attention so titled herself queen bee - DD knows the others are afraid and are turning …… and we are dealing with it together. DD wants to fight this with verbal
Reasoned arguments . Dd had several trans friends etc it’s not about that it’s about the forcing of everyone to disclose how they feel all the time or whatever that exhausting.

Sorry excuse typos I’m gardening without gloves and it’s freezing eg Jew instead of new! Etc

This guidance may help. It's work related, but provides a good framework for responding to demands to use pronouns:

sex-matters.org/posts/publications/pronouns-guide-summary/

Just tell her to grey rock her 'friend' over this one issue. If pushed, she can say 'just use whatever pronouns you think are suitable, and I won't be offended by what you use'.

If the friend keeps pushing, it just shows everyone else around her that it has absolutely nothing to do with respect, and it's all about control.

Your DD needs better friends.

Her saying ‘I don’t want to’ is more than enough. I’m not joking… this is what she should say.

One of the main reasons we've ended up in this mess is because the courts deemed that people with trans identities have the right to keep theor true sex a secret.

In reality you can't do that. It's obvious in all but the rarest cases.

This "queen" character knows that your daughter is a girl, and that girls are referred to as she and her. She is bullying your daughter.

@NutellaEllaElla

God, are these really friends at all? I'm gobsmacked that she's feeling the need to quote legal frameworks to justify herself.

This, absolutely! Good grief.

@VerveClique

Your DD needs better friends.

Her saying ‘I don’t want to’ is more than enough. I’m not joking… this is what she should say.

Yep.

How old is your dd? None of the teens I know have this, and my closest friends dd's are in year 8,9,10,13.