How I became Gender Critical

[SapphosRock]

This is a great article and really reflects my experience. Especially the slow realisation that Stonewall and the rainbow flag no longer represented me. Can anyone else relate?

https://duncanhenry.substack.com/p/tra-to-gc

@Linguini I have no idea why your comment was deleted it wasn't at all offensive

@FuriousAndFrustrated because I can't imagine the stress you went through. I don't know if I could forgive either.

I'm interested if anyone was GC right from the start? Or did everyone start out supporting trans rights until they clocked what it actually meant?

I think for feminists and left-leaning people, the almost universal starting point is a reflexive be kind and support this opressed group. Some people figure it out sooner than others of course!

Possibly conservative or religious types arrive at something like a GC view from another direction.

It takes a proper grown up to consider the opposing view, do some research and change your mind publicly and back down. Something I know i find difficult and admire it when other people can do it. This TRA movement is shitty to all women but the height of shitty towards lesbian women and the betrayal they must feel towards Stonewall who have turned their backs on lesbians, must be off the scale.

I'm interested if anyone was GC right from the start?

I used to think all born male people who wanted to be seen as women by society were those (rare) extreme types who go through surgeries and are very effeminate. They deserve to be recognised as women because of the lengths of effort they've endured.

I thought all transwomen were like Blaire White basically. That we just couldn't tell.

I believed that transwomen are using women's spaces all the time, we simply don't notice them because they blend in so inconspicuously, and how could anyone make them use male spaces. That'd be like asking me to use a male space.

I used to think.

I'm interested if anyone was GC right from the start? Or did everyone start out supporting trans rights until they clocked what it actually meant?
I didn't realise I was GC when I watched butterfly with my husband and I said, if that was my own child I would just ignore stereotypes and allow them to wear as much pink and sparkles as they like without resorting to surgery. I didn't realise that tra would have a problem with this stance.
I didn't realise what was being asked for. In one year I both shared an article about how girls were being pushed out of their sports by males and one about two spirit showing how trans is innate.
I didn't use my critical thinking skills to realise that if I reject stereotypes and support women it clashes with trans people's aims, as their aims were misrepresented as similar to the gay rights movement-ie. Free to live in peace etc.

JK made me realise that holding my boring, unremarkable view that biology is the only thing that we need separate faculties, sports and services was seen as transphobic.

So whilst I remember vividly arguing for trans rights to be allowed to express themselves, on social media, and would have described myself as an ally, I didn't realise that they didn't want allys like me.

Their loss.

I certainly started out thinking that there was no harm in pronouns, and that addressing people as they wished was a matter of courtesy. Third spaces seemed a reasonable compromise to me.

Only looking into it further did I end up understanding what the end game really was.

I was a trans ally. I think of myself as a kind person, I'm all for live and let live, to each their own. I know gay people and I guess I just kinda assumes trans was a new kind of gay type thing, ie no big deal - something to support from afar, that honestly doesn't really affect me. I assumed trans people tried hard to pass to the extend that guessing preferred pronouns ought to be easy.

My problem was the insistence on chanting TWAW, tmam, amen! Like, why ? Transwomen are transwomen. They share a pretty significant aspect of their life journey. They have specific medical needs. They might require specific services. Why can we not admit as much? Transition is nothing to be ashamed of surely?

But of course the moment I said twatw publicly I lost friends, got told I was working for the US Christian far right (lol wut) etc etc. So I educated myself and the information I gathered turned me into the proud terf I am today.

This ideology truly is a house of cards. The moment you start thinking about it is the moment you turn terf.

I've never thought it was possible to change sex or that someone could be "born in the wrong body" because I'm an atheist. The idea that you could be something you're objectively not is absurd to me. But I never had an issue with what were then termed transvestites or transsexuals etc when I went out to specific club nights or even more generally - I saw it as something to be liberal /liberated about because it seemed fun and celebratory (and we all knew where we stood). But that was before latest incarnation of trans. So I guess you could say I've always been a rational materialist.

I wasn’t GC until a couple of years ago. I believed what I’d been taught in the 90s - that transsexual people suffered from gender dysphoria and underwent a long, gruelling transition process involving hormone treatment and surgery. I had a lot of sympathy with these people and knew that no one would go through that in order to “perve on women in the Ladies”, as someone on Mumsnet once put it.

I’d also learned (from reading interviews with cross dressers) that cross dressers were NOT transsexual, did not want to transition and were mostly straight. So, I was puzzled to see MNers conflating the two groups. I started to read more and the more I read, the less sense gender ideology made. An ideology that can’t even define the terms “man” or “woman” is on very shaky ground.

Today, I was thinking about the term “trans-misogyny” and the idea that trans women are more oppressed than women who aren’t trans, because the two protected characteristics intersect.

But do they intersect in practice? Or is it more of an either/or situation, depending on whether a trans woman is read as female or as trans in any given moment?

On the other hand, trans men absolutely can be victims of transphobia and misogyny simultaneously, as the horrific murder of Brandon Teena showed.

Is this you saying that people shouldn't be trans?

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

I'm interested if anyone was GC right from the start? Or did everyone start out supporting trans rights until they clocked what it actually meant? I didn't realise I was GC when I watched butterfly with my husband and I said, if that was my own child I would just ignore stereotypes and allow them to wear as much pink and sparkles as they like without resorting to surgery. I didn't realise that tra would have a problem with this stance. I didn't realise what was being asked for. In one year I both shared an article about how girls were being pushed out of their sports by males and one about two spirit showing how trans is innate. I didn't use my critical thinking skills to realise that if I reject stereotypes and support women it clashes with trans people's aims, as their aims were misrepresented as similar to the gay rights movement-ie. Free to live in peace etc.

JK made me realise that holding my boring, unremarkable view that biology is the only thing that we need separate faculties, sports and services was seen as transphobic.

So whilst I remember vividly arguing for trans rights to be allowed to express themselves, on social media, and would have described myself as an ally, I didn't realise that they didn't want allys like me.

Their loss.

I remember saying to my sister maybe 10 years ago that I hoped we might get to the point where everyone was happy in their own skin, and that people could just be accepted for who they actually were, rather than resorting to drastic medical and/or surgical options. I was completely taken aback by how horrified she was that I felt that way (because "being trans" IS who they "actually are", and she told me that it was completely transphobic to imply that someone with a penis is "actually a man")

But she's a lesbian (and I'm not) so I kind of assumed she knew "better" than me. She certainly knew more trans people than I did, and so I tried very hard to come round to her way of thinking. It's such a relief that I don't even try to manage that kind of double-think any more though.

Germaine Greer. I remember reading what she said and thought gosh but that's not very nice! But it's GG and she's a feminist. Was confused. Then I discovered Magdalen Burns on YouTube via Mumsnet and I woke up. And it turns out GG was right all along. The cotton ceiling concept I found revolting.

I guarantee you when we come out of the other side of all this, there will be people saying it was nothing. They will be wrong. Even now it's only the men who are listened to. Richard Dawkins, Graham Lineham etc. Has anyone actually read what JKR wrote? It appears not.

How on earth can so many people lose their critical thinking faculties I do not know.

As a lesbian, I genuinely thought a lot of the cotton ceiling stuff was scaremongering. I didn't come across it IRL until a couple of years ago. I thought TRAs were just a few mad people online being amplified by GC feminists.

I think it was the first lockdown when I noticed the TRAs had infiltrated everything. All the charities, lesbian groups, organisations, even breastfeeding clinics. And I noticed women being bullied or cancelled if they dared to speak up or try and defend their rights.

So it was that coupled with discussions on here that changed my mind.

Furious I remember your thread about this at the time!
Sapphos I hope all is ok with you. I find it really interesting when people look back and analyse why they thought something and how this changed (re any important subject!)

As far as being a trans ally goes, I always hated the fetishisation involved in drag, cross dressing at pride, but what really got t9 me wa6 back in the 80s and 90’s was the infiltration of women and lesbian groups to the point of destruction, the having to centre these men above all else and having to leave lesbian groups because of the takeover. No I will never forgive.

I used to think that MNers were paranoid and obsessed with the idea that a tiny minority group might do THINGS THAT NEVER HAPPEN. I was angry about this prejudice, as I saw it, and actually planned to complain to MNHQ.

But I gradually realised that in the last few years, something has changed and many of these things sometimes do happen. Not long ago, a female prisoner who’d been sexually assaulted brought a court case. She wanted trans women who’d been convicted of violent or sexual offences against women to not be housed in women’s prisons. She lost her case, which shocked me.

I also never thought I’d never see trans women competing professionally in women’s sport. I strongly believe that everyone should have the right to participate in sport. I just don’t believe that everyone should have the right to compete in the women’s category. The biological differences between adult males and adult females are very stark when it comes to their potential sporting abilities (with the exception of a few skill-based sports).

When protected characteristics come into conflict with each other, we should be able to discuss how we can resolve this fairly. For example, cases in which religion and sexual orientation have come into conflict have been debated in the media and legally resolved in court.

Why can’t society even acknowledge that in a few situations, the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment come into conflict? Why do we have #nodebate, or protests that GC feminists are trying to deny trans people the right to exist? Why does anyone think it’s acceptable to erase the protected characteristic of sex, rather than try to find a fair compromise?

Most trans women don't date women.

@SmallPug

I've never thought it was possible to change sex or that someone could be "born in the wrong body" because I'm an atheist. The idea that you could be something you're objectively not is absurd to me. But I never had an issue with what were then termed transvestites or transsexuals etc when I went out to specific club nights or even more generally - I saw it as something to be liberal /liberated about because it seemed fun and celebratory (and we all knew where we stood). But that was before latest incarnation of trans. So I guess you could say I've always been a rational materialist.

The idea of being born in the wrong body isn't literal. It's just the description given to to growing up feeling uncomfortable with your sex. And transitioning doesn't mean you're literally changing sex. The fact you want to throw that in people's faces is just you being insulting and petty.

@Cattenberg

I used to think that MNers were paranoid and obsessed with the idea that a tiny minority group might do THINGS THAT NEVER HAPPEN. I was angry about this prejudice, as I saw it, and actually planned to complain to MNHQ.

But I gradually realised that in the last few years, something has changed and many of these things sometimes do happen. Not long ago, a female prisoner who’d been sexually assaulted brought a court case. She wanted trans women who’d been convicted of violent or sexual offences against women to not be housed in women’s prisons. She lost her case, which shocked me.

I also never thought I’d never see trans women competing professionally in women’s sport. I strongly believe that everyone should have the right to participate in sport. I just don’t believe that everyone should have the right to compete in the women’s category. The biological differences between adult males and adult females are very stark when it comes to their potential sporting abilities (with the exception of a few skill-based sports).

When protected characteristics come into conflict with each other, we should be able to discuss how we can resolve this fairly. For example, cases in which religion and sexual orientation have come into conflict have been debated in the media and legally resolved in court.

Why can’t society even acknowledge that in a few situations, the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment come into conflict? Why do we have #nodebate, or protests that GC feminists are trying to deny trans people the right to exist? Why does anyone think it’s acceptable to erase the protected characteristic of sex, rather than try to find a fair compromise?

Virtually no trans person thinks there's no such thing as sex, that's just an accusation you casually foist on people. If you actually cared about reality, you could easily understand why "gender critical" people are accused of bigotry. The mere fact that someone named Magdalen Berns is considered a hero is proof of that, given that she dedicated a channel to mocking and ridiculing trans people.

[quote thinkingaboutLangCleg]Duncan Henry says he realised the gaslighting of lesbians — demanding that they accept transwomen as sexual partners — is a form of ‘conversion therapy’.

I agree, but the trans lobby has twisted the meaning of ‘conversion therapy’ to include include counselling for young people who are convinced they are trans, and want drugs and/or surgery to affirm their identity. Counselling gives them a chance to think these life-changing interventions through first.

The government is currently considering extending the present restrictions on conversion therapy to limit what therapists can do to help people like Keira Bell avoid making a life-changing mistake.

If you want to give kids this chance, let the government know. The consultation is at
www.gov.uk/government/consultations/banning-conversion-therapy[/quote]
Who are all these trans women trying to date lesbians? Most trans women date men. Also, you realize that being pushy with people is something that PEOPLE do, right? Not something you can just make up as being a trans issue.

@SmallPug

I've never thought it was possible to change sex or that someone could be "born in the wrong body" because I'm an atheist. The idea that you could be something you're objectively not is absurd to me. But I never had an issue with what were then termed transvestites or transsexuals etc when I went out to specific club nights or even more generally - I saw it as something to be liberal /liberated about because it seemed fun and celebratory (and we all knew where we stood). But that was before latest incarnation of trans. So I guess you could say I've always been a rational materialist.

Very similar here.

@GrrrlPwr

Germaine Greer. I remember reading what she said and thought gosh but that's not very nice! But it's GG and she's a feminist. Was confused. Then I discovered Magdalen Burns on YouTube via Mumsnet and I woke up. And it turns out GG was right all along. The cotton ceiling concept I found revolting.

I guarantee you when we come out of the other side of all this, there will be people saying it was nothing. They will be wrong. Even now it's only the men who are listened to. Richard Dawkins, Graham Lineham etc. Has anyone actually read what JKR wrote? It appears not.

How on earth can so many people lose their critical thinking faculties I do not know.

Citing Magdalen Berns positively is why you would be seen as possibly being prejudice against trans people. Berns mocked, ridiculed and personally attacked trans people, more so MTF's. She was anti trans, as in, she was against the concept of a boy or a girl growing up to be referred to as the opposite later. If someone is anti trans, then why is it wrong to refer tot hem as such? Being "gender critical" is also something that makes no sense.

The idea of being born in the wrong body isn't literal. It's just the description given to to growing up feeling uncomfortable with your sex. And transitioning doesn't mean you're literally changing sex. The fact you want to throw that in people's faces is just you being insulting and petty.

So why, when Bev Jackson said no one is literally born in the wrong body, did Benjamin Butterworth gasp dramatically and call it bigotry?

Razzli - yes, quite a lot do literally think that. And a lot of non-trans people think that's what it is too. Otherwise why not focus on MH treatment?

Perhaps you could spend more time answering the posts where the inherent contradictions have been discussed to see if you can answer them? There was nothing petty or insulting about my post.