For Women Scotland Poll in the Times

[Igneococcus]

Here, something to enjoy this Sunday morning:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b81574ac-604a-11ec-8ca2-4e56f587e18b?shareToken=de1bdbac577193a8e463c1bc3ec1f071

Seems like the mumsnet echo chamber is actually a pretty good representation of public opinion.

One could almost come to that conclusion, yes

Incredible that over 30% think that males with intact male genitals should be allowed on women's hospital wards or in prisons etc. Who are these people?

There is also an analysis by John Curtice:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5f284440-6050-11ec-8ca2-4e56f587e18b?shareToken=393ddf458884097d97204968bbd22b74

Wow. Does anyone have a link to the data?

Oh, I see the number on the analysis. Over 1k adults polled.

Analysis makes good points, including this:

'only one in three (33 per cent) say they are familiar with the debate about changing the Gender Reform Act so that trans people can change their legal gender without requiring medical evidence.'

@Rightsraptor

Incredible that over 30% think that males with intact male genitals should be allowed on women's hospital wards or in prisons etc. Who are these people?

just goes to show how many misogynists/sex attackers their are looking for an opportunity.

since 98% of sex crimes are committed by men, the male prison population is 26x the female prison population and only 3% of rape cases end in a conviction and over 60% of DV cases lead to nothing......

No I am not surprised at all.

She added: “Already over 50 teenage girls have been referred to England for mastectomies. These and puberty blockers and hormones are life-changing decisions that children should not be allowed to make.

This paragraph shocked me to my core.

@ArabellaScott

Oh, I see the number on the analysis. Over 1k adults polled.

Analysis makes good points, including this:

'only one in three (33 per cent) say they are familiar with the debate about changing the Gender Reform Act so that trans people can change their legal gender without requiring medical evidence.'

It's this that worries me. I'm pretty sure most of the people I know would end up opposing self-id if they had the time to understand it all. But they're busy living their lives and dealing with the pandemic.

Im glad there's finally been some polling done

It's this that worries me. I'm pretty sure most of the people I know would end up opposing self-id if they had the time to understand it all. But they're busy living their lives and dealing with the pandemic.

Exactly, once people know the full facts about what Self ID means in real world situations, most are against it.

That is why there has been a smoke and mirrors approach, and when that doesn't work they shout others down with insults. Self ID was brought in by stealth in several countries, without the knowledge or consent of the voting public. Shame on them.

The Labour party needs to take note of this. The underlying sentiment is likely to be the same across the nations.They will never be seen as a credible opposition capable of government if they keep supporting this minority agenda.
Labour's lack of support for women is keeping the Tories in power!

I think that a lot of the general public still assumes that the average transwoman has had surgery or intends to have surgery to remove their male genitals. They are still in the Hayley Cropper mindset rather than Pippa Bunce.

Responses to surveys etc are drastically different when the phrase 'pre-op' transwoman is used. Most people don't actually believe that anyone with a penis should be able to get naked in the Topshop changing rooms with teenage girls.

Another article about the poll in today's Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/552091ca-6120-11ec-ab46-99cae2b0f128?shareToken=76ab0f98e406be9cd315eea611fd7a9d

"A poll commissioned by the political campaign group For Women Scotland (FWS), which strongly opposes the plans, found that 78 per cent of respondents would be more likely to vote for a party that “supports the protection of women’s sex-based rights”

78 per cent of respondents would be more likely to vote for a party that “supports the protection of women’s sex-based rights

Oh, dear, it sounds like the vast majority of people are transphobic.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/university-debate-womens-rights-branded-transphobic-1418085

This is also worth noting:

Among respondents who identified themselves as SNP supporters, 76 per cent said “party backing for women’s sex-based rights” would make them more likely to vote for it

Self ID is clearly not supported even among SNP supporters. Why on earth a tiny portion of the party's leaders insist on trying to force it on the electorate is baffling.

Thank you Ig

Some absolutely cracking conversations in the comments too.

I understand that in general the expectation in polls is that the "don't knows" will split pretty much the same as those who vote A/B but I would be very surprised if the same is true in this case. Surely The dont knows are far more likely to be people who have no idea about any of the self ID conversation & will be horrified by the suggestion of penises in the women's changing rooms etc

[quote ArabellaScott]78 per cent of respondents would be more likely to vote for a party that “supports the protection of women’s sex-based rights

Oh, dear, it sounds like the vast majority of people are transphobic.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/university-debate-womens-rights-branded-transphobic-1418085[/quote]
Which is what happens when you force people to choose between this very small percentage of male people and the entire half of the human race who are female.

To 'not be transphobic' means to actively oppress and harm biological females, while claiming at the same time that sex isn't a fixed or relevant thing.

If it was a case of 'should trans facilities, resources etc be provided for alongside needed facilities for female people' we could all go home and that would be the end of the problem. The angry intolerance of this political position towards females is what is increasingly forcing people to a choice one way or the other.

@ArabellaScott

This is also worth noting:

Among respondents who identified themselves as SNP supporters, 76 per cent said “party backing for women’s sex-based rights” would make them more likely to vote for it

The problem is, the other pro-Independence party which seems to be gathering SNP votes based on supporting women's rights is Alba. Headed by Alec Salmond. Him supporting women's rights is just laughable. I know he was cleared of the incredible number of allegations of abuse levelled against him, but I just don't believe it. I simply cannot believe so many women would lie.

I don’t think many people in Scotland know what snp and greens are up to

When it comes to women and girls

Erasing women and girls. Queering education

It’s sneaking it’s way into our kids lives almost in a quiet way and parents are afraid to speak out as transphobia is always used to stop us speaking

Thanks forewomen and Murray Blackburn for holding the line here in Scotland

I found that analysis for Curtice quite worrying. Oh people don't understand so polling shouldn't be taken into account.

Why don't they understand Prof Curtice? Could it be because of "no debate"?

Could it be because any reporting becomes a huge barney and potentially career damaging/wrecking for the soul who sticks their head above the parapet?

Could it be because of continual misinformation/handwaving/conflation of transphobia and homophobia from the organisations that you would expect to ensure that the public are informed?

Alex Salmond is a whole other kettle of fish, scratched. I am no fan of the man - never forgave him for allowing Trump's poxy golf course on Balmedie. But there's little doubt he was framed and stitched up. Maybe not all but certainly some of the allegations were out and out proven lies.

The only party that are looking good in this mess are the Scottish Tories, and that is something I never thought I'd hear myself say.

@ArabellaScott

Alex Salmond is a whole other kettle of fish, scratched. I am no fan of the man - never forgave him for allowing Trump's poxy golf course on Balmedie. But there's little doubt he was framed and stitched up. Maybe not all but certainly some of the allegations were out and out proven lies.

The only party that are looking good in this mess are the Scottish Tories, and that is something I never thought I'd hear myself say.

Sorry, I don't buy that. Prior to any allegations being levelled against him, when he was leader, he made my skin crawl. I had to leave the room when he came on TV. That solero picture revealed a lot. I trust my skin when it comes to men. Even his own defence described his behaviour as inappropriate, and another of his own witnesses said he was a creep. Other stuff too emerged which would have been right up there in #metoo. I'm not cutting him slack.

It bothers me enormously that people who support independence but also want women's rights believe they have to vote for a man who, at the very best, is a known sleazy creep. It also bothers me that a sleazy creep who behaves inappropriately towards women gets to pretend he suddenly cares more about women than other parties. It's opportunistic and sickening. It's more gaslighting of women.

I'm not cutting him any slack, but whether or not he's a creep has no bearing, really, on the fact that he was framed and/or stitched up. Not one of the people involved has covered themselves in glory. Right now, I'm more concerned with our existing govt in power's highly dubious acts than I am of a man who is not really looking like he can feasibly achieve much politically anymore.

Granted, that does leave you with nobody to vote for if that's your political leaning.

Insofar as the SNP gov have given us a glimpse of how an independent Scotland might be run, I'd be bloody terrified were we to find ourselves on that road.

A govt has to be founded on the basis of transparency and has to be answerable to the electorate. This gov have shown themselves to be mendacious, manipulative, arrogant opportunists who dgaf about anybody.