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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help - waded in to JKR row on fb

153 replies

crunchermuncher · 16/12/2021 11:10

A friend on fb has posted something about Fantastic Beasts. One of his friends (who I don't know) has commented that 'The author is a bitch'.

I would really like to say something that stimulates people to think, rather than just blindly swallowing the 'she's a hateful transphobe' line. I also know that this is a particularly woke audience, so any replies need to be minimalist and carefully crafted.

So far I have replied 'why?' And got the predictable reply about her views on trans people. I have asked what specifically she has said. I'm now trying to step away from the conversation for a day or so in case I become enraged by the inevitable nonsense and say something I will regret!

Any tips on a) what to say and
b) how to not lose my shit?

I hate seeing a woman being abused online by another woman, just for standing up for women's rights. It's depressing.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 17/12/2021 07:47

"1 in 50 inmates ID as trans"

www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmiprisons/inspections/annual-report-2018-19/

crunchermuncher · 17/12/2021 11:15

Thanks for taking the time to post those links WarriorN, all useful stuff.

To me, there is an additional issue here, on top of the mangled stats and allowing convicted rapists access to women (as if that wasn't bad enough! ) of affording additional respect/comfort to rapists that is not being afforded to their victims. The trauma of having to refer to your attacker as 'she' whilst trying to give an accurate account of what happened must be devastating.

In rape as in no other crime, the sex of the attacker is pertinent to the offence. Having to refer to the attacker as 'she' would add to the shame and distress and fear of not being believed - it's police sanctioned gaslighting. It may prevent cases being taken to court if the victim is concerned that this could happen. And all for the 'comfort and dignity' of the rapist.

1.4 million women in the UK have been raped, according to that BBC explainer. I wonder how many, if any, of the perpetrators identified as a woman before they committed those attacks? It defies all logic to change police policy like this.

OP posts:
RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 17/12/2021 11:16

@Blackbird1234

But as we've understood with racism, homophobia etc there isn't necessarily one definition of it. I'm straight and white, therefore if I said something that a gay person or black person deems offensive and homophobic/racist to them then I'm not going to question it, I'll simply apologise and not say it again. I don't understand why it isn't the same rule for transphobia. Some people think what she says is, some people think what she says isn't - I'm inclined to listen to trans peoples opinions on it as they're the ones concerned and as that can differ from person to person, I dont find it my place to call it transphobia or not.
This is the fundamental mis-step (in the case of some activists, an entirely deliberate mis-step, but I’m going to assume good faith from you) at the root of all this. You’re assuming a power dynamic that simply isn’t there.

You’re equating being “trans” with being part of an oppressed/marginalised minority (black, gay) and being “not trans” with being part of the privileged/oppressor class (white, straight).

This is one of the cornerstones of the argument for why women should cede their rights to those male people who identify as women.

But this assumption leaves out/denies the existence and reality of arguably the single biggest axis of oppression/privilege that there is in the world, that there has ever been. The axis of sex. The oppression, control and abuse of biologically female people by biologically male people is and has been pretty much universal throughout recorded history: it has taken place and continues to take place among people of every culture, religion, and race.

Male people have oppressed female people because they can, because of their ability to overpower female people should they wish, and because of the power structures they have been able to create over millennia based on that capacity for superior brute force - power structures which serve their interests, and perpetuate and massively compound that natural physical advantage.

The relative ability to overpower of male people and the relative vulnerability of female people is a fact of life that will never change, regardless of what laws are passed or cultural shifts we see. Likewise, it is a fact of life that only males can impregnate and only females can become pregnant, with the huge additional layer of vulnerability for females and of potential control for males that brings.

In whose interests is it to pretend these things are not facts? To demand the complete dismantling of the language we need to identify and analyse these facts, and the power structures our world is based on? To obscure this fundamental axis of oppression and paint biologically female people as the privileged oppressors and biologically male people as the disenfranchised minority they oppress?

Who benefits from this most audacious reversal of the real power dynamics? Whose interests are served by this mass delusion?

You say you listen to black people when it comes to racism and gay people when it comes to homophobia. (Probably best not to get into the issue here of these groups evidently not being a monolith so there not necessarily being a consensus, but there are black people and gay people who would find it offensive in itself to think there is a single “black” or “gay” voice, that one person or even group could speak for others with such vastly differing experiences and attitudes.)

But taking your point in good faith, let’s extend it. If you were black yourself, would you listen to a white person who identified as black telling you that something you said was trans-racist towards them? If you were a lesbian, would you listen to a straight person who identified as gay telling you that something you said was trans-homophobic towards them?

Do you think black people whose lives have been shaped by growing up black in a racist world, who have no choice but to move through the world being recognised as black, with all that that entails, have a moral obligation to recognise that they are the oppressors vis à vis someone like Rachel Dolezal?

Because those are the more accurate analogies to what is being demanded of women. We are being demanded, by members of the privileged/oppressor sex class, to act as if we are the ones with too much power, so awash with privilege we are blinkered to the plight of these more unfortunate and disadvantaged biologically male people, so powerful, traditional and conservative in the way we jealously protect our lofty status in society that we are literal dinosaurs hoarding our rights.

Let that sink in, as they say on Twitter (or let that penetrate as some are wont to phrase it). The underlying narrative here is that women - biologically female people - have too much power in the world we live in.

We have TOO MUCH POWER. Just as men wrongly perceive women to be talking too much, talking more than they are, when their contributions to a meeting even begin to approach parity with those of the men there, so male people are now perceiving women to be simply too powerful now that we have a modicum of “equality” in law in the western world and a greater measure of influence than we previously had.

Obviously we’ve seen this trope for some time in MRA circles. But now it’s been picked up by those who identify as liberal and on the side of social justice. What a useful, useful tool for the closet misogynist to beat women with. You women have too much power! You’re using it against these poor defenceless biologically male people! Stop being so meeeeeaaaaaan, you nasty bullies!

Do I really need to spell out how women don’t actually have too much power in the world we live in? Surely I don’t, do I? The evidence is really blindingly obvious, isn’t it?

And yet… not just men but women throw themselves into this incredible contortion, this incredible distortion of reality. The same studies that show that men perceive women as talking too much - talking more than men - in mixed sex groups/meetings where men are actually still dominating, just because women talk a bit more than they used to, also show that many women are liable to the same misperception.

Men have controlled women for so long that we are, as a class, used to shrinking ourselves - holding back, deferring, taking up less space than we should be entitled to - and it is a hard habit to break, even now that male control has apparently loosened somewhat. (I say “apparently” because the current state of affairs would seem to show that that male control has not loosened much after all, just reconfigured itself into a more acceptable shape for the times we live in.)

Hence there being so many women who seem to agree with the logical and moral absurdity that women do indeed have far too much power in the world today and need to give some of it back to the downtrodden males we have oppressed with our femaleness for literally millennia.

The hardest chains to break are the invisible ones. Especially when you’ve worn them for so long they feel like a part of you. Men have been telling women it’s in our nature to be enslaved by them, to be lesser than them, to be the ones who put their needs ahead of our own, ever since they first felt the need to justify the fact they’d so unilaterally seized power over us.

We don’t have to believe them.

And that means we don’t have to collude with the lies. Including the lie that women are the oppressors and biologically male people who identify as women are the oppressed.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 17/12/2021 11:20

Sorry OP, not a direct response to your request, but hope it’s indirectly helpful!

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 17/12/2021 11:21

If a man has transitioned to a woman you can just say transwoman. And transman for vice-versa.

Ah come on marg you know that won't be good enough. We, women, GC women here, tried that and that little bit of gove led us here. And I am pretty certina that is a backtrack on your behalf, you've been one who said TW are literally W.

And, in real life, with friends who are trans I don't call them anything other than the name they prefer. But I reserve the right to identify their real sex, as indeed do they!

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 17/12/2021 11:26

Ministry of Justice (MoJ) figures in November said there were 139 transgender prisoners in 44 jails. Of the 42 in women’s jails, 22 were men who identified as female, while in male prisons 92 of the 97 were men identifying as women.

So 22 transmen in the female estate and 5 in the male estate.

We haven't had those figures before, have we?

Having said that the information in the Telegraph article is so digusting as to leave all else behind.

ditalini · 17/12/2021 11:37

Depends if they count non-binary via self-ID, albeit not recognised in law.

Waitwhat23 · 17/12/2021 12:56

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark outstanding post. Having to sit on my hands to stop myself standing up and applauding!

BlueberryCheezecake · 17/12/2021 13:00

It's amazing how many threads crop up on here from people who've waded into online or irl arguments about trans equality and need to come to Mumsnet to ask what to say because they don't actually know what their own opinions should be or what their own side's arguments even are.

dolorsit · 17/12/2021 13:29

@BlueberryCheezecake

It's amazing how many threads crop up on here from people who've waded into online or irl arguments about trans equality and need to come to Mumsnet to ask what to say because they don't actually know what their own opinions should be or what their own side's arguments even are.
It's usually more about how to word one's view point without being deleted/banned/shunned or fired.

Sometimes it's to get a quick reference that the op can't find.

So, your DARVO post doesn't really work 4/10

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 17/12/2021 13:58

Those of us who have experienced emotional abuse will be familiar with the dynamic whereby abusers blame and mock their victims for being damaged by the abuse inflicted on them, which is itself another layer on top of the abuse already being perpetrated.

When people with less structural power are consistently gaslighted, manipulated, falsely blamed and demonised for even existing, let alone trying to stand up for themselves, by those with more structural power, on a societal-wide level, it often leads to the victims questioning themselves, struggling to articulate what is happening to them and exactly why it is wrong.

We see it very often on the Relationships board here where women in what are very clearly (to outsiders) abusive relationships question whether what is happening to them is normal, is even worthy of complaint. These women can find it really hard to pinpoint exactly why what their abusive partner is doing is so wrong, they can literally find it hard to see which way is up after their heads have been messed with so much.

These women doubt themselves because they’ve been ground down by years of abuse on a personal level, just as women as a class have been ground down by millennia of abuse on a structural level.

The women on the Relationships board reach out to other women for support, and in the best case scenario other women, at a remove from the immediate situation, often with their own experience of similar, are able to share their wisdom and advice, and the abused woman is able to take it on board and take steps to exit the abusive situation.

Similarly, women experiencing a form of structural abuse and gaslighting which is so intense and outrageous it beggars belief and makes them question their own perceptions, makes it hard for them to articulate their own heartfelt response, reach out to others for solidarity and support. Just as women on the Relationships board have a wealth of information on what benefits can be claimed and other legalities, so the women of FWR have a wealth of arguments and links to useful statistics and information. Sometimes of course the same women are on both boards, as there is, after all, quite a crossover.

My tendency is to have compassion for all victims of abuse and to try to understand the corrosive effects of gaslighting on a massive scale, particularly when the entire forces of the Establishment are colluding with the gaslighting, and have been for a period of years, in some specific cases - and for hundreds if not thousands of years in a general, overarching sense.

Not all people share that compassion for victims of abuse.

While thinking about this, let’s not forget which of the two sexes actually has vastly more structural power than the other.

Never forget that. And never forget how important it is for women to talk to each other - and how much some male people whose power/privilege is threatened by women talking to each other would like to stop us from talking. For precisely that reason.

SolasAnla · 17/12/2021 14:28

Althought it can prove to be a very very difficult task, lots of women have formulated their own opinion.
🏆👏🏻👏🏻

Actually, all women🏆👏🏻👏🏻 (and men🏆👏🏻👏🏻) formulate their own opinion, people may not agree with them, or agree but disagree in how they were expressed.

Rather than grabing the nearest dog/body part slur the MN posters (generally) seek a way to engage with the person who used a slur by remaining civil.

When it comes to women's equality;
it may be objecting to being described as a bleeder;
or the ideology that male rapists are women;
or just about women being relegated to the position of the family pet.
🤷🏼‍♀️

On MN they get a chance to read posts like @RoaringtoLangClegintheDark 🖐 response to @Blackbird1234 🖐 .
@Blackbird1234 has been actively engaged in the discussion (without having to resorts to any 🐶animal cruelty🐶 at all)

The reader may agree or disagree that's the great thing about MN.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 17/12/2021 14:35

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

Those of us who have experienced emotional abuse will be familiar with the dynamic whereby abusers blame and mock their victims for being damaged by the abuse inflicted on them, which is itself another layer on top of the abuse already being perpetrated.

When people with less structural power are consistently gaslighted, manipulated, falsely blamed and demonised for even existing, let alone trying to stand up for themselves, by those with more structural power, on a societal-wide level, it often leads to the victims questioning themselves, struggling to articulate what is happening to them and exactly why it is wrong.

We see it very often on the Relationships board here where women in what are very clearly (to outsiders) abusive relationships question whether what is happening to them is normal, is even worthy of complaint. These women can find it really hard to pinpoint exactly why what their abusive partner is doing is so wrong, they can literally find it hard to see which way is up after their heads have been messed with so much.

These women doubt themselves because they’ve been ground down by years of abuse on a personal level, just as women as a class have been ground down by millennia of abuse on a structural level.

The women on the Relationships board reach out to other women for support, and in the best case scenario other women, at a remove from the immediate situation, often with their own experience of similar, are able to share their wisdom and advice, and the abused woman is able to take it on board and take steps to exit the abusive situation.

Similarly, women experiencing a form of structural abuse and gaslighting which is so intense and outrageous it beggars belief and makes them question their own perceptions, makes it hard for them to articulate their own heartfelt response, reach out to others for solidarity and support. Just as women on the Relationships board have a wealth of information on what benefits can be claimed and other legalities, so the women of FWR have a wealth of arguments and links to useful statistics and information. Sometimes of course the same women are on both boards, as there is, after all, quite a crossover.

My tendency is to have compassion for all victims of abuse and to try to understand the corrosive effects of gaslighting on a massive scale, particularly when the entire forces of the Establishment are colluding with the gaslighting, and have been for a period of years, in some specific cases - and for hundreds if not thousands of years in a general, overarching sense.

Not all people share that compassion for victims of abuse.

While thinking about this, let’s not forget which of the two sexes actually has vastly more structural power than the other.

Never forget that. And never forget how important it is for women to talk to each other - and how much some male people whose power/privilege is threatened by women talking to each other would like to stop us from talking. For precisely that reason.

What a terrific post. Thank you.
Toplowlight · 17/12/2021 14:37

You could mention that while she has been co-opted by people who are very anti trans rights, she wrote into her novels characters who could change sex at will, so her position is likely way more nuanced than the polarised online debate suggests.

crunchermuncher · 17/12/2021 15:38

Roaring I am in awe of your eloquence , thank you for your articulate comment.

As pointed out by another poster , I know full well what my opinion is, I wasn't asking what it should be or taking a 'side' , I was seeking advice on how best to be listened to.

OP posts:
SolasAnla · 17/12/2021 15:44

@Toplowlight

You could mention that while she has been co-opted by people who are very anti trans rights, she wrote into her novels characters who could change sex at will, so her position is likely way more nuanced than the polarised online debate suggests.
Of course her position will be nuanced. Where is the polarised debate which claims she is a TRA who will prioritise males over females? Is it just her saying no TRA demands about males that's polarising?

Because that is the debate the word no.
That women have a right to their words and a right to single sex services when single sex services are in the best interest of woman.

It's never about Transmen or Transpeople when that includes TM is it?
Where are TRA out protesting to protect transmen from the dangers of men's bathrooms or from male violence?

It's always about failing to put males first when it comes to being "women".

Why is it that TRA are the ones saying there is no such thing as "women's rights"? TRA are looking for males to have "rights" just not "women's rights".

crunchermuncher · 17/12/2021 15:51

That second para to Blueberry. Anyway, it wasn't a debate about trans rights, it was someone abusing a woman online with a sexual slur, for no adequately explained reason, and I was questioning this. If they had said they didn't agree with her point of view (her actual pov, not assumed / inferred ), and explained why, then that would be a different matter.

Thanks to all for the supportive comments. This issue is upsetting me greatly.

OP posts:
VeryLongBeeeeep · 17/12/2021 16:21

I've been on MN for longer than I can remember in one guise or another - getting on for 10 years, I think - and those posts by RoaringtoLangClegintheDark are two of the best I have ever read here, on any forum, on any topic. And there have been some stellar posts here over the years.

ScreamingMeMe · 17/12/2021 16:58

@MargaritaPie

"What specifically did she say"

Recently she described transwomen as "penised individuals". Regardless what the context is that particular choice of words isn't going to sit well with many people.

Saw this and thought of you, Marge.
Help - waded in to JKR row on fb
Peppercorn9 · 17/12/2021 18:25

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark what an exceptionally good articulation of the argument - thank you. I am saving your posts to re-read every time I need the words to fight my corner (GC woman in a totally captured workplace here!)

MonsignorMirth · 17/12/2021 18:39

@BlueberryCheezecake

It's amazing how many threads crop up on here from people who've waded into online or irl arguments about trans equality and need to come to Mumsnet to ask what to say because they don't actually know what their own opinions should be or what their own side's arguments even are.
Yes, imagine not knowing what your own views are! Imagine if trans rights activists couldn't even explain their answers to "what is a woman?" "how can a sex match a gender?"

Oh hang on, isn't blueberry the poster who has been ignoring these very questions for as long as I can remember?

How amazing!

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 17/12/2021 18:43

Indeed ... and another poster here who pops onto any thread where women's and trans rights may conflict just to remind us how transphobic we are - with no specifics whatsoever - and pretty much never to discuss how the clash actually harms women and children.

Tale old as time, innit.

Waitwhat23 · 17/12/2021 18:50

@BlueberryCheezecake as 'your side's' argument appears to consist of -

  • Denying biological facts
  • Shouting 'transphobe' over and over again.
  • Insisting (in the face of overwhelming evidence) that there is no conflict between the needs of women to have single sex spaces and people of a different sex being permitted to access those spaces

I think most posters like the OP are asking for advice on how to have a rational conversation with the gender equivalent of a flat earther - someone who is sticking both fingers in their ears and shouting 'lahlahlahlah' when faced with evidence (or screaming slurs and rape/death threats).

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 19/12/2021 17:06

@crunchermuncher

Roaring I am in awe of your eloquence , thank you for your articulate comment.

As pointed out by another poster , I know full well what my opinion is, I wasn't asking what it should be or taking a 'side' , I was seeking advice on how best to be listened to.

Thank you - and I do hope it didn’t come across that I was implying you don’t know your own mind, as that was certainly not my intention! It’s just that (from my own experience) it can be hard to see the wood for the trees and articulate exactly what the issue is when the claims and statements being made are just unadulterated bullshit from start to finish, as they sometimes are.

I was in that position again yesterday when reading the cycling thread. The articles linked to were such epics of gaslighting that while I wanted to post, I couldn’t even begin to separate out the many strands of untruths, obfuscations, straw men and misogyny, and alight on a single point. I can’t speak for anyone else but I find the sheer scale of the dishonesty completely paralyses me sometimes, still now, after years of being engaged in this battle.

I was thinking the other day that to me it’s as if the people who believe the royal family are all lizards, or the flat earther/young creationist types were being listened to, taken seriously, and consulted on policy making, allowed to write the laws of the land we live in, really.

That’s the level I put sex denialism on, and what is the whole of genderism if not sex denialism? Denial that it exists, that it matters, that female people have been and still are massively harmed by ubiquitous sexism and misogyny. This is denying a fundamental part of material reality; why is it any less “out there” than denying the material reality of the physical universe on a general level?

I can’t get my head around it. That what I perceive as this madness currently reigns. And we have to live in this world with so many people pretending, as I see it, it’s perfectly reasonable and not insanely irrational at all, and try to argue rationally against what we see as complete unreason as if the two sides were of equal merit. And we are the pariahs for questioning beliefs we genuinely see as being on a par with “lizard people are secretly controlling us”.

And then when we get certain biologically male visitors (not all biologically male visitors, of course) to this board who delight in dropping in and scolding us for our temerity in standing up for reason and our belief in our own humanity, or in disseminating misinformation about the law and our rights, or mocking us for our distress and often impotence in the face of obstacles they have used their male privilege and power to create for us; and generally revelling in that male privilege they deny having but yet use to such good effect to control and silence us, as far as they can - and would use to silence us altogether, if they could - it does get hard to always frame a calm, reasoned response, doesn’t it. It does get wearing.

And yes, in this climate, the struggle to put over what you think about something you never thought you’d have to defend, in the same way you never thought you’d have to prove that water was wet, in a way that those people who are denying that water is wet or saying they’re not sure whether it’s wet after all (“I mean, ice, right?!”) might actually listen to is a never-ending and taxing one.

I’m sorry you’re finding it so upsetting, cruncher, but I do understand it. It is deeply upsetting, what is happening. Hope you’ve managed to enjoy your weekend, and take some solace in Maya’s latest win. And FWIW, I agree with others that your own words, I hate seeing a woman being abused online by another woman, just for standing up for women's rights. It's depressing, make a great response.