Help - waded in to JKR row on fb

[crunchermuncher]

A friend on fb has posted something about Fantastic Beasts. One of his friends (who I don't know) has commented that 'The author is a bitch'.

I would really like to say something that stimulates people to think, rather than just blindly swallowing the 'she's a hateful transphobe' line. I also know that this is a particularly woke audience, so any replies need to be minimalist and carefully crafted.

So far I have replied 'why?' And got the predictable reply about her views on trans people. I have asked what specifically she has said. I'm now trying to step away from the conversation for a day or so in case I become enraged by the inevitable nonsense and say something I will regret!

Any tips on a) what to say and
b) how to not lose my shit?

I hate seeing a woman being abused online by another woman, just for standing up for women's rights. It's depressing.

@MargaritaPie

"What specifically did she say"

Recently she described transwomen as "penised individuals". Regardless what the context is that particular choice of words isn't going to sit well with many people.

Context matters very much in this case. You are being disingenuous, at the least.

Here's where it has been discussed at length, for anyone that missed it (I know MP didn't):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4424695-gaun-yersel-jkr

@MargaritaPie

"What specifically did she say"

Recently she described transwomen as "penised individuals". Regardless what the context is that particular choice of words isn't going to sit well with many people.

No she described rapists as penised individuals.

Please don't bring your transphobia here

If it comes down to debating whether a comment is transphobic or not, I will be more inclined to accept the trans persons point of view rather than the non trans persons. However, I fully accept that in the wider scheme of things there are a lot more things at play involving a lot of other demographics of people, of course. I'm speaking in very specific terms here rather than the wider view.

Well then, what does that have to do with JKR's comments or GC feminism? Of course saying trans people are all [insert derogatory term] would be transphobic but the 'trans people' (usually ones who don't make any attempt to present as female) saying JKR is transphobic are saying she should not contribute to policy discussion on recording of rapes.

If another woman pointed out that something I had said was misogynistic then yes, of course I would apologise

Even if you disagreed and felt they were just saying that to silence you? Even if lots of women agreed with you? Even if it was a public policy discussion and you felt your view was ethically correct?

[quote ClareCAIS]You can share this that I wrote after the first time JKR was attacked online www.google.co.uk/amp/s/differently-normal.com/2020/06/10/example-post-3/amp/?client=safari[/quote]
Cheeky spamming of the board going on here. I DID actually click, when will I learn, and I really don't think your lengthy essay will be of any use to OP in her FB debate!

@Blackbird1234

I understand that, but in just the same way that women don't want men speaking for them on what is/isn't sexist, surely it's hypocritical to listen to non trans people over trans people on what is/isn't transphobic?

What about when JKR has spoken about woman's rights such as their right not to be housed in prisons with male bodied prisoners ? Or to access single sex spaces?

She hasn't mentioned trans people at all in terms of those things
So how can that possibly be transphobic ?

@Blackbird1234

But as we've understood with racism, homophobia etc there isn't necessarily one definition of it. I'm straight and white, therefore if I said something that a gay person or black person deems offensive and homophobic/racist to them then I'm not going to question it, I'll simply apologise and not say it again. I don't understand why it isn't the same rule for transphobia. Some people think what she says is, some people think what she says isn't - I'm inclined to listen to trans peoples opinions on it as they're the ones concerned and as that can differ from person to person, I dont find it my place to call it transphobia or not.

That’s an interesting point, and I am with you on the racism/ homophobic language issue, in that people who have experienced racism and homophobia know what it looks like and sounds like , and to be fair many of the people who are racists and homophobes also know what it looks like and sounds like because that is often the language they choose to use to hurt and denigrate. And generally I believe that trans people also have the right to live their lives free of abuse and discrimination. However, and it is a big however, I do not believe that the trans community is doing itself any favours by hijacking language that is not inherently transphobic and claiming it is. The word woman is not transphobic, nor is the word mother, nor is pregnant or pregnancy or any of the other words - often though not exclusively words that pertain to women and the specific function of women’s bodies - that are now being redacted from our language to the detriment of linguistic clarity, clear information and accurate reporting.

This attempted elimination of inoffensive language , together with the unprecedented violence and intimidation that the trans community and their supporters unleash when challenged make it very hard to recognise that there is genuine concern and genuine discrimination within wider communities against trans people.

@donquixotedelamancha I would apologise to whoever it is if what I said offended them, it doesn't mean I need to agree with them. If I wanted to enter into a debate with them then I would still watch my words, make sure I didn't say anything openly offensive whilst discussing whatever it is otherwise there is zero point discussing anything. At the end of the day if I'm disagreeing with someone I can still stay respectful, leave the conversation without my opinion being changed, but still having learnt something or having had a good discussion.

If I disagree with a policy and have the "backing" of a massive number of other women then that still applies - I'd hope I could get my opinion across without offending. If my opinion in itself is the thing that is deemed offensive rather than the words I'm using or how I'm choosing the express myself then that's another situation - I'd listen to the views of the other person, try and be understanding and if at the end we both agree to disagree then so be it, more work to be done on either side.

If my opinion in itself is the thing that is deemed offensive rather than the words I'm using or how I'm choosing the express myself then that's another situation - I'd listen to the views of the other person, try and be understanding and if at the end we both agree to disagree then so be it, more work to be done on either side.

It seems to me that women, and JKR have been trying to do that for years. In response they get death threats, harassed and sacked.

I would apologise to whoever it is if what I said offended them, it doesn't mean I need to agree with them.

I don't think women should have to apologise for the offensive opinion that a victim's rights and the accuracy of crime stats should trump a rapist's feelings.

@viques I take your point and agree with you. I'm just also weary of it all as in general the ones with the loudest voices making the most insane claims do not represent the "genuine" people.
If I see some headline that the word "woman" is now transphobic and anyone who uses it is a transphobia, then I know to take that with a pinch of salt. We've had this all before- "the gays want this", "the blacks want this", "the feminists want this" and it's all blown massively out of proportion from what the genuine "group" actually said/want as it makes far more money to show a certain "group" to be wild extremists who say terrible things and turn everyone against them, because thats what sells newspapers and that's what history does with minority groups. I'm sure that there are completely extreme batshit trans people, I dont believe that what they're saying is what the genuine people wanted in the first place.

I do not believe that the trans community is doing itself any favours by hijacking language that is not inherently transphobic and claiming it is.

Thing is (in the UK at least) it isn't the trans community. It's a small group setting this agenda, many of whom are not trans.

@donquixotedelamancha Then we simply have different opinions, I'd be fine with apologising for offending whilst keeping my opinion in tact.

Anyone who sends death threats is a dick in my opinion, no matter who they are. I take issue with some comments I've seen on threads in this category of mumsnet lumping the whole trans community together as if it's a hive mind and every single trans person is sending death threats (not on this thread or anyone here, just what I've seen on others)

@MargaritaPie

"What specifically did she say"

Recently she described transwomen as "penised individuals". Regardless what the context is that particular choice of words isn't going to sit well with many people.

Yes a rapist by definition has a penis. Nice try at muddying the waters and removing all context.

I for one don't give a fuck if it hurts a rapist's feelings hearing that they have a penis. They didn't rape their victim with a clitoris. They raped their victim with their penis, their male sex organ.

WTF is wrong with people? Why do they try so hard to defend the utterly indefensible? It must be endless, exhausting self-gaslighting.

"I do not believe that the trans community is doing itself any favours by hijacking language that is not inherently transphobic and claiming it is."

"Thing is (in the UK at least) it isn't the trans community. It's a small group setting this agenda, many of whom are not trans."

I fully agree with this, unfortunately it's the entire trans community who are blamed for this unfairly. Some maybe. Not all.

I take issue with some comments I've seen on threads in this category of mumsnet lumping the whole trans community together as if it's a hive mind and every single trans person is sending death threats

I don't disagree with that at all. It's the equivalent of holding all Jewish people responsible for the actions of the Israeli military.

The problem is that the opposition have done such a good job of muddying the language around what trans means (deliberately, there are some really fascinating interviews from them about how) for so long that it's really hard to be clear unless you are very careful with words.

I'm straight and white, therefore if I said something that a gay person or black person deems offensive and homophobic/racist to them then I'm not going to question it, I'll simply apologise and not say it again.

Would you not want to understand why it's offensive though?
Or do you just have a mental list of words, phrases etc that are off-limits and don't want to know the how and why?

For instance, I never knew that the word "uppity" had racial connotations (in the US). Learning why it was offensive helped me learn so much more than "avoid - bad word".
Learning why "men aren't women", for e.g
., is transphobic, is equally enlightening.

(It involves flipping the meaning of man/woman between gender category and sex category in the same sentence without making it explicit you are doing so in order to make it transphobic)

@Blackbird1234

"I do not believe that the trans community is doing itself any favours by hijacking language that is not inherently transphobic and claiming it is."

"Thing is (in the UK at least) it isn't the trans community. It's a small group setting this agenda, many of whom are not trans."

I fully agree with this, unfortunately it's the entire trans community who are blamed for this unfairly. Some maybe. Not all.

Agree with this too - we are often guilty of the shorthand referring to the problematic positions, not for e.g. the people that acknowledge they are deeply unhappy being their birth sex and want to be read as the other.

I fully agree with this, unfortunately it's the entire trans community who are blamed for this unfairly.

I think the vast majority on here know the difference. I don't think that unnuanced quick comments on a forum where people are familiar with the details indicate prejudice.

Clearly some are bigots but MN is actually quite hostile when they make it obvious so they tend to move on.

@donquixotedelamancha
Oh 100%, it's always such a pity to see that people fall into that trap and have such hatred for an entire community without thinking "hang on, this might not be right". Even if they have some very interesting points in their comment, it ruins all their credibility for me.

I'll try and find some of those interviews, it's a really effective tactic to stop people from getting points across and has been done so often in history, I'm sure!

I'll try and find some of those interviews

IIRC the most open one was someone from press for change (possibly Christine Burns) who talked about how (after the GRA) serveral organisations deliberately removed any distinctions between transvetites, cross dressers and transsexuals from their briefings, press work, research and conversation with ministers in order to make people think that they were only referring to post op transsexuals. Radio, I think- someone here may better remember.

@MonsignorMirth
Of course I would want to understand! I dont just blindly add it to the notes app in my phone and move on. My point is that apologising doesnt mean you agree - I see it often on social media that people will say something very offensive, then stand by it and say "it's not offensive" rather than simply saying "ah shit sorry why is it offensive?", learning and then still holding their same original view if that's how it is. Just seems common courtesy to me.

@donquixotedelamancha
Fair enough, however an unnuanced quick comment with obvious offensive language within it (even accidental) wont necessarily be understood as "oh that user isn't offensive at all she was just probably in a rush" to the vast majority of readers and may therefore contribute to "casual transphobia" or whatever "obia/ism" the conversation surrounds.

Thanks @donquixotedelamancha Ill have a search for that if no link pops up from someone else! :)

But as we've understood with racism, homophobia etc there isn't necessarily one definition of it. I'm straight and white, therefore if I said something that a gay person or black person deems offensive and homophobic/racist to them then I'm not going to question it, I'll simply apologise and not say it again. I don't understand why it isn't the same rule for transphobia. Some people think what she says is, some people think what she says isn't - I'm inclined to listen to trans peoples opinions on it as they're the ones concerned and as that can differ from person to person, I dont find it my place to call it transphobia or not

Always important to remember that CRT, Queer Theory and other Social Justice concepts originated as academic theories, some argue they’re closely linked with Marxism…and it’s perfectly ok to question or defend yourself when confronted with their tenets. You certainly don’t have to shut up in manner of David Bamber’s portrayal of Mr Collins when Lady Catherine speaks, because someone from one of those groups tells you to.

I appreciate your essay @ClareCAIS and will bookmark it for future use.

(It's not spam ffs.)

@donquixotedelamancha

I do not believe that the trans community is doing itself any favours by hijacking language that is not inherently transphobic and claiming it is.

Thing is (in the UK at least) it isn't the trans community. It's a small group setting this agenda, many of whom are not trans.

Yes sorry, I worded that badly.

I'm straight and white, therefore if I said something that a gay person or black person deems offensive and homophobic/racist to them then I'm not going to question it, I'll simply apologise and not say it again.

How would you respond if some trans people called JKR transphobic and other trans people hailed her opinions as absolute truth? I've seen a lot of trans women applauding her.