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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Elan Cane appeal unanimously dismissed by Supreme Court judges

67 replies

ConservativesForWomen · 15/12/2021 10:22

www.supremecourt.uk/press-summary/uksc-2020-0081.html

"The central question is whether HMPO's policy breaches the UK's obligations under the Convention. There is no judgment of the European Court of Human Rights ("the European Court") which establishes an obligation to recognise a gender category other than male or female, and none which would require the Secretary of State to issue passports without any indication of gender. In fact, there does not appear to have been any case before the European Court concerned with the application of the Convention to individuals who identify as non–gendered."

OP posts:
CervixSampler · 15/12/2021 19:41

And side not dude. Ffs I need sleep.

HermioneWeasley · 15/12/2021 19:42

This

Elan Cane appeal unanimously dismissed by Supreme Court judges
PermanentTemporary · 15/12/2021 19:50

The person who brought the case looks really ill. Hard to believe this stuff is making them happy, though of course I don't know what they looked like before.

Goodwin vs UK was a ECHR case of 2002. They found that there was no convincing demonstration of harm to wider society if post-op transsexuals were allowed to create a life that hung together in terms of their identity and privacy, because the numbers were so tiny. The GRA jumped ahead by allowing the same for individuals who had not transitioned surgically. And here we are.

NonnyMouse1337 · 15/12/2021 20:51

That was always the long-term plan and strategy though - first spin up a narrative of incredibly fragile transsexuals who had genital surgery, what's the harm, they are such a tiny number, and crucially the bizarre privilege of 'privacy'. So it's secured in law that people can 'change sex' if they have had surgery.

Next step is wail about the surgery, boo hoo, it's against human rights to demand surgery, these operations are very complex and are not usually successful, and so on. So now it's secured in law that people can 'change sex' without surgery, as long there's a rubber stamp of a 'medical diagnosis'.

Which brings it to the third stage - wail about how the medical diagnosis is against their human rights, boo hoo, so awful, how can you expect us to submit any kind of paperwork, omg it's so demeaning, it should all be based on feeeeeeelings i.e. self-id - which is the point we are at.

And once you have self-id, then the fourth stage is to wail about how the concept of sex itself is harmful to their human rights, it's so limiting you know, just do away with it completely, there's infinite genders anyway and if they aren't all validated then it's literal genocide, omg we have no human rights because we pretend we don't have a sex - wail, wail, wail.

And people dance to their tune like fools.

highame · 15/12/2021 21:25

Cane will take this forward to European Court of Human Rights. Who's funding?

PermanentTemporary · 15/12/2021 21:39

I don't think it was the long-term plan. I think there's always people who are prepared to take things one step further.

And it's why 'there's only a few so it doesn't matter' shouldn't be a legal argument and should never have been part of any decision. TBH it's also been used today - that it's not an important issue because Elan-Cane is one of the only people who's ever asked for this. That's not in itself a good argument imo.

What's interesting is that in both Goodwin and this case, the fact of state healthcare has been used as an argument. So, both Christine Goodwin and Christie Elan-Cane had surgery on their sexual characteristics funded by the NHS, and their lawyers then argued that it made no sense for the state to assist them to reach a certain physical state without giving them a legal name for it. This appeared to be convincing to the judges in the Goodwin case, unsuccessful today. It made me really angry. Surgery to remove organs specific to one sex due to mental health needs does not change sex and should not be regarded as 'sex change surgery' which now sounds like something out of Confessions of a Windowcleaner. It also implies that any woman who has had a hysterectomy is no longer female; either this, or that your thoughts about a surgery magically change what it is.

highame · 15/12/2021 21:43

Well said

Rightsraptor · 15/12/2021 23:12

When I worked in the NHS we very much believed that we were not an arm of the state. So I can't see how the argument about 'the state' helping them get thus far but no further can hold any water when the state did nothing in the first place.

PermanentTemporary · 15/12/2021 23:30

I'd agree entirely. I don't regard myself as working for 'the state' but for patients. So something that may benefit an individual patient for highly personal reasons shouldn't be used to create a concept in law imo.

MsFogi · 15/12/2021 23:36

@highame

Cane will take this forward to European Court of Human Rights. Who's funding?
The issue here is that if the ECHR has drunk the Kool Aid that will have a huge knock on effect on cases here.
CharlieParley · 16/12/2021 00:26

Which brings it to the third stage - wail about how the medical diagnosis is against their human rights, boo hoo, so awful, how can you expect us to submit any kind of paperwork, omg it's so demeaning, it should all be based on feeeeeeelings i.e. self-id - which is the point we are at.

That argument has already been made to the ECtHR. And lost.

In 2017, the ECtHR ruled in L’arrêt A. P., Nicot et Garçon vs. France on France's requirement that applicants seeking to change their legal sex had to have either surgery or be sterilised. They ruled that this breached the human rights of applicants.

This ruling is often cited to argue that self-id must now be made law across Europe.

But there is a second part to that ruling that directly disproves this claim, on France's further requirement that applicants seeking to change their legal sex must submit to a medical examination and provide evidence of a medical diagnosis. And on this requirement the ECtHR ruled against the applicants.

Using very much the same reasoning as the Supreme Court, the ruling was that states had an obligation to all other members of society, and that they had to weigh up the wider implications of a legal sex change through self-id for all other people against the wishes of people who identify as trans.

And on balance they decided that states could lawfully insist that before allowing an applicant to change their legal sex, the applicant had to provide proof that there was a medical condition that made this a necessity for the applicant. Because sex matters.

(I'm recalling rather than citing the ruling. Obviously.)

PermanentTemporary · 16/12/2021 00:27

Oh Charlie that's fascinating! Thank you

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/12/2021 05:57

PermanentTemporary it absolutely was a stretegic and long-term plan, at least in the UK.
I've seen something similar for the US, but have lost the scanned images of the article that talks about some of it. Bit more complex because different states have different laws, but the transsexuals - transvestites strategy was also used there.

Anyway, back to the UK strategy. A glimpse of it is explained here -
womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/

Press For Change is the organisation that is pretty much solely responsible for the Gender Recognition Act being passed in 2004. They championed the use of the term ‘trans’ precisely because it made no distinction between ‘transsexual’ and ‘transvestite’.

(From Christine Burns: Pressing Matters Vol. 1)

‘Until human rights campaigners like us came along, talking about umbrella concepts, this diverse community had got along with a relatively stable lexicon for many years. There were ‘transvestites’ and ‘transsexuals’ – TVs and TS’s in the community shorthand – and that was more or less the only language you needed to know for more than a generation since Harry Benjamin had coined the latter term in his book ‘The Transsexual Phenomenon’ in 1966.

‘Our successes as a campaign were grounded in progress made for people who fitted the clinical definition of transsexual. At the heart of this was a tacit understanding that people in positions of power might be persuaded to change laws for people with some kind of clinically underwritten status – something they couldn’t help being. This is why ‘Transsexualism – The Medical Viewpoint’ was seen as strategically important and why all the key court cases had rehearsed the developing scientific understanding of a basis for us being born or developing this way. It was also why the government would expect to include a medical definition of ‘transsexual’ in the forthcoming employment protections they planned to consult upon.

‘We knew in our hearts at that time that policymakers and judges weren’t yet sophisticated enough in their understanding to contemplate rights for people whose difference appeared self-identified or impermanent or maybe even optional. That didn’t mean we weren’t going to try where possible. There was a valid freedom of expression case to be made for people to be able to present in whatever way they wish. But we were also pragmatists, careful not to frighten the horses at this early stage. (Note, however, that in the Equality Act 2010 – which replaced the Sex Discrimination Act – the requirement for having been medically diagnosed was finally removed).

‘I cannot recall exactly how we reached a consensus inside Press for Change. It wasn’t written down in email correspondence – it arose in telephone or face to face conversations, including the long calls I was now having with Claire McNab on Sunday afternoons before setting off for another hotel. Somehow or other, however, we arrived at a consensus that if we maybe all used the word ‘trans’ as an umbrella term – and words like ‘transsexual’ only when we needed to be more specific’ then maybe some of that would catch on gradually.

‘And so that is what we did. From there on, without fanfare, my essays and our web content discreetly began to use this language. Claire took the opportunity during the move of the PFC website to revise the existing content in the same way.

‘In the weeks and months ahead people would sometimes ask what the word meant or why we were using it. Then we would explain the rationale and suggest why we thought it was important. The change was gradual. In fact it took years for the word to begin sounding familiar and to hear it in other people’s language. In 2002 when we were consulting over government press releases to announce the forthcoming Gender Recognition Bill, the officials still weren’t convinced that enough people understood the new word to use it. Yet today most people seem to embrace the word naturally – when they are not simply calling themselves men or women.’

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/12/2021 06:11

CharlieParley that's really interesting and good to know. Thanks for explaining!

PermanentTemporary · 16/12/2021 06:13

Thanks nonnymouse how right you are.

Christine Burns i find quite frightening.

WalkOnGildedSplinters · 16/12/2021 09:15

Me too. Though there’s several others in that category too.

Artichokeleaves · 16/12/2021 09:25

The word 'pernicious' is an interesting one. Also important to remember salami tactics, for those who remember Yes Minister.

I am beyond relieved to have seen the court state that the freedoms and wishes of an individual have to be weighed up against the freedoms and rights and interests of others, and society as a whole. This must be the boundary.

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