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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Elan Cane appeal unanimously dismissed by Supreme Court judges

67 replies

ConservativesForWomen · 15/12/2021 10:22

www.supremecourt.uk/press-summary/uksc-2020-0081.html

"The central question is whether HMPO's policy breaches the UK's obligations under the Convention. There is no judgment of the European Court of Human Rights ("the European Court") which establishes an obligation to recognise a gender category other than male or female, and none which would require the Secretary of State to issue passports without any indication of gender. In fact, there does not appear to have been any case before the European Court concerned with the application of the Convention to individuals who identify as non–gendered."

OP posts:
terryleather · 15/12/2021 14:24

Has the SC refused to validate the identity demands of an entitled narc? Good news on a dark and dull day.

JustHereWithMyPopcorn · 15/12/2021 14:44

Good!!

ANewCreation · 15/12/2021 15:13

From the judgement:

"The Appellant was born female but underwent several operations that were successful in achieving the desired status of "non-gendered." From 1995 onwards the Appellant has been in contact with Government Departments to seek to persuade the Government that a passport should be issued to the Appellant without the necessity of making a declaration of being either "male" or "female". This could be achieved by a third box being added to the passport application form allowing a person to mark that box with an "X" indicating gender "unspecified".

"Perhaps most importantly, there is not the obvious discrepancy between the appellant's physical appearance & the... marker in the appellant's passport."

Ouch...

That'll be because sex is immutable, I guess

terryleather · 15/12/2021 15:16

"The Appellant was born female but underwent several operations that were successful in achieving the desired status of "non-gendered."

What does that nonsense even mean?

How does any cosmetic surgery make you "non gendered".

What utter arsewash.

OnAWinterMorningFarAway · 15/12/2021 15:21

Do Supreme Court judgements on such civil / human rights matters apply to the whole of the UK? Including Scotland?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 15/12/2021 15:46

Yes the SC is binding on Scotland and NI too.

JellySaurus · 15/12/2021 15:53

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Sorry for multiple posts I am thinking this through as I post Who would be the comparator for equal pay if a person is non binary? Would it be discrimination if a non binary person wasn’t invited for both cervical and prostate cancer screening?

I suspect that the ramifications of recognising non binary as a category could well outweigh the harm to a specific individual of not recognising it.

The comparator would surely be another person of the same sex?
NancyDrawed · 15/12/2021 15:59

@terryleather

"The Appellant was born female but underwent several operations that were successful in achieving the desired status of "non-gendered."

What does that nonsense even mean?

How does any cosmetic surgery make you "non gendered".

What utter arsewash.

The surgeons have already spotted that gap in the market:

NULLIFICATION
While many patients might be interested in transitioning into either a male or female identity, there are plenty of individuals who feel that their gender identity does not quite conform in one direction or the other. Gender nullification surgery can enable non-conforming patients to enjoy a relatively smooth genital area.

Nullification creates a relatively continuous and mostly unbroken transition from the abdomen down into the genital area, enabling gender non-conforming patients to enjoy a body that looks closer on the outside to the way they feel on the inside.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 15/12/2021 16:01

Does a non binary person have a sex? If their passport has neither male or female, can you assume anything about their sex? This part of the issue that may cause the ECHR to pause. What are the implications for the individual and the legal system?

JellySaurus · 15/12/2021 16:13

In the same way as body modification makes you an alien, leopard, tiger or parrot. It doesn't.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10230619/amp/Tattooed-man-wants-black-alien-two-FINGERS-cut-turn-hand-CLAW.html

www.tattoodo.com/articles/6-people-who-turned-themselves-into-animals-through-body-modifications-6017

How is gender 'nullification' any different to those?

JellySaurus · 15/12/2021 16:14

@terryleather

"The Appellant was born female but underwent several operations that were successful in achieving the desired status of "non-gendered."

What does that nonsense even mean?

How does any cosmetic surgery make you "non gendered".

What utter arsewash.

Was meant to be in response to this post.
Artichokeleaves · 15/12/2021 16:28

The appellant is female.

The appellant has chosen to have cosmetic surgery. The appellant has personal choices about language.

Those do not result in a change of sex, and there is a limit to how far personal preference can be enabled within a society that has to base itself on facts and objective reality. Self expression has its limits.

foxgoosefinch · 15/12/2021 16:39

@terryleather

"The Appellant was born female but underwent several operations that were successful in achieving the desired status of "non-gendered."

What does that nonsense even mean?

How does any cosmetic surgery make you "non gendered".

What utter arsewash.

Presumably it's "nullification" surgery -- eg. hysterectomy and sewing up the genitals (they leave a hole for the urethra).

www.alignsurgical.com/non-binary/nullification/

terryleather · 15/12/2021 16:49

@JellySaurus

In the same way as body modification makes you an alien, leopard, tiger or parrot. It doesn't.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10230619/amp/Tattooed-man-wants-black-alien-two-FINGERS-cut-turn-hand-CLAW.html

www.tattoodo.com/articles/6-people-who-turned-themselves-into-animals-through-body-modifications-6017

How is gender 'nullification' any different to those?

Well exactly Jelly.
ErrolTheDragon · 15/12/2021 17:00

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Does a non binary person have a sex? If their passport has neither male or female, can you assume anything about their sex? This part of the issue that may cause the ECHR to pause. What are the implications for the individual and the legal system?
And what is the implication for the individual under the legal system of any country they travel to?

This whole 'gender marker' idea seems to fundamentally mistake the purpose of a passport. There's a clue in the name... it's not a document about how you may wish to identify; its purpose is so that other people can identify you.

What happens to the owners of X passports foolishly bestowed on them by a few other countries if they fall foul of the law when abroad?

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 15/12/2021 17:23

@Artichokeleaves

The appellant is female.

The appellant has chosen to have cosmetic surgery. The appellant has personal choices about language.

Those do not result in a change of sex, and there is a limit to how far personal preference can be enabled within a society that has to base itself on facts and objective reality. Self expression has its limits.

In a nutshell.
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 15/12/2021 17:39

@Artichokeleaves

The appellant is female.

The appellant has chosen to have cosmetic surgery. The appellant has personal choices about language.

Those do not result in a change of sex, and there is a limit to how far personal preference can be enabled within a society that has to base itself on facts and objective reality. Self expression has its limits.

Exactly. What are the implications for the individual and society if enabling the individuals self expression takes them outside of the legal framework of a society or societies. They could find themselves in a legal limbo.
WeeBisom · 15/12/2021 17:40

I noticed a government spokesperson said that IF they introduced a gender 'X' identity for passports, it wouldn't be a free choice as to whether one got an 'x' designation but there would 'have to be criteria put in place', conditions you had to fulfil before you could qualify. And then he added that the 'x' had to be 'meaningfully connected' with one's gender identity. I would be super curious to see what criteria they managed to come up with, because the gender identity itself is entirely a free choice and self declaration: if one says they are non binary then they are! There are no further conditions to be satisfied. So what could they possibly say you need to fulfil in order to properly qualify as 'x' gender? Get your breasts removed? Surgeries? Shave your head? Have a distinct fashion sense?

MsFogi · 15/12/2021 17:41

Thank God the Supreme Court didn't rule in favour of such nonsense.

Fallingirl · 15/12/2021 18:07

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

Does a non binary person have a sex? If their passport has neither male or female, can you assume anything about their sex? This part of the issue that may cause the ECHR to pause. What are the implications for the individual and the legal system?
We know that many gender ideologues want the sex marker removed entirely, from both passports and birth certificates. This could be laying the groundwork for that.
Fallingirl · 15/12/2021 18:14

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

My reasoning is that most countries laws will be predicated on the concepts of male or female either gender or sex. To try to be declared as neither may lead to unintended consequences and harms as the individual could lose protections.

Effectively the scale of the change the ruling would bring about would be disproportionate as the whole binary sex/gender split in legal systems throughout Europe would have to be re examined to ensure that no unintended harms flowed from acceptance of non-binary as a category.

But we know neither ECHR nor UK government are too good at considering unpredicted consequences.

I will not bet on the ECHR making only sensible judgements, and it may be more likely that the UK government will start making noises about leaving the ECHR. We just can’t take anything for granted anymore.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 15/12/2021 18:19

The SC did highlight the fact that the legal system is based on binary sex/gender in its judgement so that point would go before the ECHR

From the judgement
“ As was explained in evidence, there is no legislation in the United Kingdom which recognises a non-gendered category of individuals. On the contrary, legislation across the statute book assumes that all individuals can be categorised as belonging to one of two sexes or genders (terms which have been used interchangeably). Some rights differ according to whether a person is a man or a woman: for example, rights of succession to hereditary titles. There are criminal offences that can only be committed against persons of a particular gender: for example, female genital mutilation. There is a raft of legislation which assumes that only a woman can give birth to, or be the mother of, a child, including legislation relating to maternity rights and benefits, health provision and fertility treatment, and nationality. The legislation governing the registration of births requires the sex of children to be recorded. Legislation relating to marriage and civil partnership (including legislation permitting same sex marriages) assumes that everyone is either a man or a woman. The Gender Recognition Act 2004, enacted following the judgment of the European court in Goodwin v United Kingdom, likewise assumes that all individuals belong to one of two genders, albeit not necessarily the gender recorded at birth. Equality legislation protects people from discrimination if it arises from their being a man or a woman.
A binary approach to gender also forms the basis of the provision of a wide variety of public services. The prison estate, for example, is divided into male and female prisons. Hospitals have wards where patients can only be of a single sex. Local authorities may fund rape crisis centres or domestic abuse refuges which offer their services only to women. Many schools only admit pupils of a particular sex. Much of this is underpinned by, or permitted by, legislation.
Against this background, it is apparent that the questions whether other gendered categories should be recognised beyond male and female, including a non-gendered category, and if so, on what basis such recognition should be given, raise complex issues with wide implications. Counsel for the appellant argued that the courts below had erred in treating the coherent treatment of individuals in the appellant’s position as a significant consideration. On the contrary, the courts were right to conclude that the need for a legally and administratively coherent system for the recognition of gender was an important factor.”

Interestingly - although the SC did acknowledge the (unfortunate) interchangeability between sex and gender they also say that there are only 2 of them. So perhaps there aren’t 100+ genders in law after all wink

ErrolTheDragon · 15/12/2021 19:15

We know that many gender ideologues want the sex marker removed entirely, from both passports and birth certificates. This could be laying the groundwork for that.

Do these people actually want to use their passports to travel abroad? Have they thought through what may happen if they're suspected of a crime if the authorities want them searched or incarcerated?

CervixSampler · 15/12/2021 19:39

The Twitter comments are amusing. Wrong side of history? No, you're the wrong dude of science. Love it.
This cheered me up today I feel like we are making significant steps to overuse this nonsense.

CervixSampler · 15/12/2021 19:39

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