Is that.. The Guardian coming to its senses?

[Awkwardy]

I sense a turning tide...

www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/dec/13/swimming-trans-debate-starting-to-change

Sean Ingle never lost his sense. For some reason - perhaps because the sport section is largely male dominated, and men by and large don't buy TWAW - he's been able to write quite a few sensible articles in the last few years without colleagues feeling threatened and forcing his removal.

I came on to see if there was a thread about this. The article is still in the 'be kind' mould but at least references the different arguments which is a welcome change.

I think Sean has always been onside. Like Hadley and a few others.

I'm sure Owen Jones people hide his mug in the staff coffee room though...

To be honest, I don’t see why there has to be “careful” discussions and “sensitive” debate about this issue. Female sport should be for females only. Gender identity is irrelevant. Male participants should compete in another category.

Hopefully Liar Thomas will sweep the boards at the next swim meet. It would be even nicer if the women refused to compete. Would love if Thomas got a slow hand clap too.

@Cailin66

Hopefully Liar Thomas will sweep the boards at the next swim meet. It would be even nicer if the women refused to compete. Would love if Thomas got a slow hand clap too.

It would be a powerful message if all the women at the next meet just stayed on the blocks but I understand that that is very hard for them to do.

@WeeBisom

To be honest, I don’t see why there has to be “careful” discussions and “sensitive” debate about this issue. Female sport should be for females only. Gender identity is irrelevant. Male participants should compete in another category.

Neither do I, this type of pandering is part of the problem.

@WeeBisom

To be honest, I don’t see why there has to be “careful” discussions and “sensitive” debate about this issue. Female sport should be for females only. Gender identity is irrelevant. Male participants should compete in another category.

Yes, I just don't get it.

There is no reason to separate sports by gender. It makes no sense.

@VestofAbsurdity
Yes. Wait for Thomas to finish and then commence the female race.

@WeeBisom

To be honest, I don’t see why there has to be “careful” discussions and “sensitive” debate about this issue. Female sport should be for females only. Gender identity is irrelevant. Male participants should compete in another category.

100%.

I imagine the "debate" has to be careful and sensitive for Grauniad readers, however, lest their cognitive dissonance run into overdrive and explode what's left of their hijacked brains.

I say this as a former Grauniad reader.

It's almost as if current testosterone levels aren't the only factor in why men have an advantage over women 🤔

The Grauniad's sports coverage is often quite decent. I don't see how you can be a professional sports journalist and not know why men and women compete separately in nearly all fields.

If you would like some back story, this thread is tracking the goings on.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4414643-Penn-s-Lia-Thomas-breaks-200-500-Free-records-in-meet-with-Princeton-Cornell

Sean Ingle has been pretty good on this but the piece is unnecessarily tentative - perhaps because it's the Guardian.

Men shouldn't compete in women's sports.

Ingle is a specialist sports journalist who happens to work for the Guardian, rather than a political journalist with a pro-trans agenda writing about sport, which explains his approach to the subject.

Of course it isn't. If you relied on the graun for GC news you would be in for a long wait. Girl Guides weirdo? Nope. Loudon County rapist? Zilch. If in doubt, try to post anything remotely GC in the comments-binned immediately.

The whole thing maddens me; all the handwringing and "it's nuanced." No it absolutely isn't.

I'm furious that even with a growing recognition of the complete unfairness of T suppression the debate is now, 'Well how CAN we shoe-horn TW into women's sport then?'

When I see the photo of that swimmer looking triumphant I could vomit.
How could anyone have such a false sense of themselves, or be so narcissistic?

Thing is, readers move from News to Features to Sport and bring their opinions with them.

So are there now a bunch of angry people spluttering 'transphobia", or are Guardian readers saying to themselves 'weird that this is only being reported on in the sport section'?

Sean Ingle is great.

Unsurprisingly the Guardian has a couple of TWAW sports writers. Jonathan Liew wrote a stunningly stupid article when he was at the Indie, including one of the most ignorant paragraphs I have ever read about this subject, or indeed any other:
Let’s say transgender athletes pour into women’s sport, and let’s say, despite the flimsy and poorly-understood relationship between testosterone and elite performance, they dominate everything they touch. They sweep up Grand Slam tennis titles and cycling world championships. They monopolise the Olympics. They fill our football and cricket and netball teams. Why would that be bad? Really? Imagine the power of a trans child or teenager seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be inspiring.

Liew actually admits he believes it wouldn't matter if no women won any events in any sport ever again - after all, they're only women, they barely count. Just think instead of how great it would be for the males who are not good enough to compete against their own sex.

The Guardian snapped him up first chance they got, of course.

To be honest, I don’t see why there has to be “careful” discussions and “sensitive” debate about this issue. Female sport should be for females only. Gender identity is irrelevant. Male participants should compete in another category.

Hear hear WeeBisom

I saw a line that stuck with me when reading about this:

Genders don't compete: bodies do.

Why can't trans women compete with men? Surely that would really be the ultimate acceptance?

(Rhetorical question on here, as we already know why they don't compete against other male bodied athletes).

Absolutely @WeeBisom. It's not complex. It's not difficult. It's not sensitive. We don't need nuance. No men in women's sports EVER. It's the easiest thing in the world!

@GoodieMoomin

Absolutely *@WeeBisom*. It's not complex. It's not difficult. It's not sensitive. We don't need nuance. No men in women's sports EVER. It's the easiest thing in the world!

Exactly.

I wonder if Sean Ingle would be allowed such latitude to discuss the issue if he was a female journalist at the Guardian or would his article result in a petition and a boycott and all the familiar tactics.