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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is that.. The Guardian coming to its senses?

41 replies

Awkwardy · 13/12/2021 13:50

I sense a turning tide...

www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/dec/13/swimming-trans-debate-starting-to-change

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 13/12/2021 17:46

“Are there ways, that are not infringing on human rights, to create a level playing field?” he asked. “Are there other conditions that we can create – for example staggered starts in the 100m? Or delayed starts?”

Even if steps are taken which would allegedly make it fairer, you are still increasing the numbers competing in the women’s category, and women who would have won before will lose out. Women is not an “also ran” category, where we should throw in lots of extra male bodies.

We should also bear in mind this only occurs because these men are taking decisions that could have been deferred until they were past the stage of top competition, just as women athletes have always had to make decisions about pregnancy. Women who want to transition presumably are already making that choice, which tells us all we need to know about fairness. That’s the thing about drugs and medical treatment. Sometimes if you want to compete, there are difficult choices to be made and I get that that might be shit for some individuals, but elite sport has always involved difficult choices.

And of course, if you really want to make all sport fair for all, the alternative would be to place “handicaps” in all sports, as they do with golf. That way, everyone could compete in the same category. Imagine the outcry men would make when they had to compete with women on a fair playing field and were no longer able to win all the time.

And yet nobody is suggesting that. Only that women’s sport should be changed, because the powers that be don’t see it as important enough to matter.

This stuff makes me want to scream.

🤬

WeeBisom · 13/12/2021 18:13

And in case you think I'm a hypocrite for saying 'no debate' in this context, but wanting debate in others. To my mind, it's all the wrong way round. We have been told 'no debate' in areas of policy absolutely critical for women's rights, and in regard to the very definition of 'woman' being radically changed. And yet we are told very careful, nuanced, kid gloves debate is needed in areas which have already been decided long ago by biological fact and science. It's very interesting the areas where debate is banned, and where debate is welcomed.

Artichokeleaves · 13/12/2021 18:25

It really doesn't matter how carefully and sensitively you destroy women's rights. It doesn't make destroying them any better.

And the lack of any care and sensitivity towards women is a very large part of this whole issue.

Linguini · 13/12/2021 18:44

Imagine the power of a trans child or teenager seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be inspiring

FFS. Unless you're a trans child who identifies as a boy. You know, a female born trans child.

Then you grow up with the double whammy of no females winning in the women's category and no transmen winning in the male category.
Where's this child's great transgender inspiration?

I can't believe how stupid* these people are.

*Phallocentric/misogynistic/blind to the existence of females...

secular111 · 13/12/2021 20:08

I reckon when Lia breaks one of Katie Ledecky's records that will be the peaking event to beat all events.

Even the New York Times and Washington Post will have to pay attention; they're doing their best to try to ignore Lia Thomas right now, but the pressure's growing, and it will only get worse.

NotTerfNorCis · 13/12/2021 21:38

TRAs are arguing 'sport isn't fair'.

Okay then, why do we have sex-segregated categories at all if not to try and ensure some fairness?

I'm sure TRAs would rather see sex-segregated categories eliminated and sport destroyed for women rather than keep males out of women's sports.

Battytwatty · 13/12/2021 21:39

I love how someone upthread called her Liar Thomas. So apt!

Igmum · 13/12/2021 22:07

Excellent sensible article

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 14/12/2021 00:41

We have been told 'no debate' in areas of policy absolutely critical for women's rights, and in regard to the very definition of 'woman' being radically changed. And yet we are told very careful, nuanced, kid gloves debate is needed in areas which have already been decided long ago by biological fact and science.

And

It really doesn't matter how carefully and sensitively you destroy women's rights. It doesn't make destroying them any better.

Two particularly good points.

NotBadConsidering · 14/12/2021 01:29

I am happy for there to be debate around the sport issue with transwomen if the default position is correct.

Start from the actual current position that males have inherent advantage, we segregate sport by sex for good reasons and that males are not women, and therefore not eligible for women’s sport. Those who disagree with this can make a case against this, conduct research that demonstrates no physical advantage or risk to safety, explain how males are actually women and are actually eligible, explain how these males can’t play in their own sex category, and then sporting bodies can consider it all and make a decision. Only then allow transwomen to compete against women if they prove their case.

But that isn’t what has happened is it? What has happened is that the debate has centred around the default positions that transwomen are women, physical advantage doesn’t exist if testosterone is lowered, and safety concerns are unfounded. It has been left to women, women’s organisations and their supporters, scientists and sports scientists to “prove” that none of these things are true. So now sports organisations have to consider the fact that they’ve been told the sky is blue, it was always blue and will always be blue and figure out how they’re going to backpedal on their previous policies.

So a debate around sport can be had, but not from a starting position of lies.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/12/2021 07:59

It’s probably as unfair as an 18 year old competing against a 12 year old.

All you have to do is see the ‘victory’ photograph to know.

Artichokeleaves · 14/12/2021 09:20

In the mass of obfusctication and linguistic confusion, I often ask myself:

  • who introduced this whole issue? (That would be male people)
  • what is the agenda of all this waffling and concern? (to benefit male people)
  • what would be the desired outcome? (a whole lot more stuff for male people)

So basically everything being said is a unilateral campaign for male people to take over female sports for their own reasons. And the waffling is trying to make this look like something justifiable. As opposed to just bloody awful sexist and dominating male behaviour towards females, while enacting a belief that everything belongs to males and females should only get the bits of life that male people don't want. (At present. Like women's sports; that can change on the spot if a group of male people decide they do want it.)

alienbaby · 14/12/2021 09:24

The guardian always follows the trend. It was ultra pro trans 5 years ago. It bullied Suzanne Moore out. Now critics' voices are getting louder and louder and the tide is turning, the guardian is following step. It has a spineless editorial policy.

Cuck00soup · 14/12/2021 09:27

@Xoxoxoxoxoxox

I wonder if Sean Ingle would be allowed such latitude to discuss the issue if he was a female journalist at the Guardian or would his article result in a petition and a boycott and all the familiar tactics.

I was having the same thought.

I'm in favour if anything that shines a spotlight on cheating though, so nonetheless it's good to see.

NotBadConsidering · 14/12/2021 09:31

@alienbaby

The guardian always follows the trend. It was ultra pro trans 5 years ago. It bullied Suzanne Moore out. Now critics' voices are getting louder and louder and the tide is turning, the guardian is following step. It has a spineless editorial policy.
It does, but Sean Ingle deserves credit and exemption from scorn. He has written consistently on this, with balance, facts and without agenda and from his articles and Twitter it’s clear he believes in fairness.
ScrollingLeaves · 14/12/2021 09:34

I wonder what ordinary men -from the street so to speak- would think if they saw this trans woman claiming to have won a race against a female swimmer?

I suppose it doesn’t matter what they think, as this is apparently not about men.

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