Changing gender in your passport

[HDDD]

Just reading this interesting debate between Kathleen Stock and Robin White in Prospect magazine.
www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/essays/gender-wars-two-opposing-perspectives-on-the-trans-and-womens-rights-debate
This line just screamed at me "For good practical reasons, the UK passport office will allow individuals to change their gender in their passport long before they can make an application for the GRC required to change their legal sex". This I did not know?! What ARE the good practical reasons? Travelling abroad for surgery?

But gender isn't on your passport?

@Zerogravity

But gender isn't on your passport?

Conflation of sexual and gender again

Robin is on Twitter denying it was a debate as they sent them the same questions and they didn't know what the other had answered. So more like a game of Mr and Mrs

Afaik the original reasons for allowing this were for people who had lived "as a woman" (or man) for a v long time, had had surgery and were not "out" at all as transgender. So if their passport had "M" when they presented as very feminine and as a stereotyped woman, it could cause confusion, embarrassment or even aggression/violence in some countries.

' ... or just sit next to us on the train you, would find that we are accepted into the female diaspora'.

Interesting use of the word 'diaspora' by Robin White. Merriam Webster defines it as, inter alia, 'people settled far from their ancestral homelands'. So I'm reading that as Robin accepting that females have been booted out of our 'ancestral homelands' i.e. womanhood and are now having to occupy a space far, far away. Now, why are we having to do that?

I would like Robin to know that I definitely do not sit anywhere near the TW who travels by bus in my part of the world. Their trans status stands out a mile and is extremely unsettling to me. Everything in me shouts 'avoid!' So I obey my gut and will continue to do so.

Airport scanners have two automatic modes for men or women. If a man has a female marker on his passport, his genitalia are marked as an abnormality which usually means he has to be patted down in that area by a woman. I've seen TRAs on Twitter laughing about being patted down in that area every time they fly. Some describe it as humiliation. One got upset when the airport said a male worker had to do it because the female worker didn't want to pat down his groin. Having the wrong sex marker means having to explain trans status to the security worker anyway so it seems a bad idea to lie about being male or female on your passport.

@BitMuch

Airport scanners have two automatic modes for men or women. If a man has a female marker on his passport, his genitalia are marked as an abnormality which usually means he has to be patted down in that area by a woman. I've seen TRAs on Twitter laughing about being patted down in that area every time they fly. Some describe it as humiliation. One got upset when the airport said a male worker had to do it because the female worker didn't want to pat down his groin. Having the wrong sex marker means having to explain trans status to the security worker anyway so it seems a bad idea to lie about being male or female on your passport.

Oh. So the argument of not wanting to have to "reveal" trans status to security/passport control is nonsense? Colour me shocked.

This reply by the Passport Office to an FOI Request suggests that the option to provide a GRC is a new thing, well since the GRA2004 in any case (my bolding):

"The issue of a passport in an acquired gender does not give legal recognition of the change of gender. For passport purposes, the question is only whether the person has permanently adopted a new identity. There is therefore no requirement to produce a GRC in order to obtain a new passport in an acquired gender identity. The previous policy of accepting a written statement from a medical consultant or GP that the customer is expected to live permanently in the acquired gender identity will remain in place.'"

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/changing_gender_on_a_passport

I wonder when that "previous policy" was implemented?

Change Name or Gender on Your Driving Licence

If your name or gender has changed

You must provide additional evidence if your name or gender has changed since your identity document or driving licence was issued.

If you’ve changed your name, you need to provide at least one of the following:

• your marriage or civil partnership certificate
• your decree nisi or decree absolute, along with your birth or adoption certificate, or UK certificate of naturalisation
• a deed poll

a statutory declaration

If you’ve changed your gender identity, you need to provide at least one of the following:

• a deed poll
• a statutory declaration
• a gender recognition certificate

You must also provide the identity document or driving licence that shows your previous name or gender identity.

Get a statutory declaration

You can get an official statement confirming that you’ve changed name or gender (called ‘a statutory declaration’) from:

• a solicitor
• a magistrate
• a commissioner of oaths

www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence

Apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate

Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender

This proof must cover the required time that you’ve lived in your acquired gender. It could include copies of your:

• passport
• driving licence
• payslips or benefit documents
• utility bills or other documents of an official nature

All documents should be in your acquired name and gender. The earliest document must be dated before the beginning of the required time.

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/documents-you-must-provide

It is all rather circular.

If you are say male but choose to present yourself as female, can’t you just have your passport photo changed? Assuming you haven’t changed your name.

Sex is very important in identifying people.

If you are say male but choose to present yourself as female, can’t you just have your passport photo changed? Assuming you haven’t changed your name.

Of course people could simply change their photo. And they could charge their legal name and still keep their natal sex on their passport.

But I should imagine changing the sex recorded on their passport and driving licence is more about using those forms of ID to change their recorded sex when using other services than specifically about flying while presenting as a different sex or driving while presenting as a different sex.

It's about the validity this gives in terms of accessing other services which may be segregated by sex and which have rules in place (e.g. having policies that amount to "if a person's official government ID states they're female, then who are we to argue?").

And also it obviously helps people to qualify for a GRC. If it's possible to change one's passport and driving licence and you haven't done that despite having had the opportunity, I can imagine a gender recognition panel might wonder why. Since it's a relatively easy step to take and it's likely to increase the evidence that you're 'living as your acquired gender', why would you not take that step?

F and M do not indicate gender, though. They indicate sex. This is why the whole thing is so ludicrous.

If people don't want to be stopped, or questioned, they could just have trans put on their passport.

The idea that this is a nightmare of privacy invasion simply doesn't stand up. No one would even need to mention it. And given that almost 99% of the time it's fairly obvious what sex you are it would actually create less confusion.

But, like everything else, it would appear to be about validation not ease.

In almost every conversation about this entire issue, the talking at cross purposes is very frustrating.

We just need to pee, we're frightened of the men in the men's, we don't want to be outed, that's othering us, etc.
None of it actually holds up.

Datun - "In almost every conversation about this entire issue, the talking at cross purposes is very frustrating.

We just need to pee, we're frightened of the men in the men's, we don't want to be outed, that's othering us, etc.
None of it actually holds up."

Plus:

"If something really bad happens to me, like someone looked at me funny when I walked into The Ladies, then call me a "transwoman" when I tell my story to the Press about how I ran home in tears and it made me suicidal.

But if a transwoman (insert violent offence here) then call them a "woman"."

If people don't want to be stopped, or questioned, they could just have trans put on their passport.

The unintended consequence of this would be that everyone is given a gender identity field on official documents, though (whether people choose to use it or not).

This would be bad for people who don't subscribe to gender ideology, for people who don't want to declare their gender identity and for people who feel they have a fluid gender identity.

It would also be bad for young people, as everyone would be asked to question how they feel about their relationship with gender just to get a driving licence/passport. I know we're not far off of this now, but I can't think of anything worse than the government telling us all that everyone has a gender identity on all of our official documents. I would have a massive problem with this (although fortunately I don't think the trans community would be in favour either, so I'm not worried).

I don't know how we get to this from where we currently are, but I think for things like passport control, etc, training should be (or at least should have been) around acceptance and recognition that some biological males present as (and feel very deeply that they are) women. Instead, we seem to have reached a point where the official message is increasingly that "some women inhabit male bodies".

There was a case - Ireland I think - where a trans woman was stopped going through customs because they has a padded bra (stuffed) which of course staff has to check out. It was a flipping airport after all.

The traveller was incandescent (even through they really ought to have thought that one out) and of course humiliated and tearful (in the newspaper). Now if they’d just thrown on some jeans and a jumper, then this wouldn’t have happened as I believe they had a paaaper that has their sex noted.

If you can change your sex on your passport and birth certificate, then you should be able to change your age too.

Many people look older or younger than their age. So, they'd 'pass'. Then they could go inter railing or avail of student scholarships. On the other hand, people who could pass for an oap could retire early on full pension. Isn't it a matter of human right? You could even identify as a youngster or person of oap age without any costume or cosmetic change. The trans movement could apply to all the immutable things on your birth cert. Along with time and date not aligning with your inner feelings, you could really want to have been born in a certain place or country. The conflict between the age you feel, and the recorded one, would be a constant reminder of the disparity and could be a source of great sadness.

The principle has been ceded on reality and retaining recorded facts; you can now get them altered to what you wish those facts had been. However, this privilege has not been extended to the general population and for wider identity purposes. The entire birth cert should be a wish list open to all, and not just changed as a privilege for a select few. It is discriminatory to only alter the record in order allow people who want the record of their sex changed to one they wish it to have been. This is against the rights of say a 47 year old who feels as if they are only 18, or 67.

You could retire early on a full pension and use your 'identify' modified nationality to retire to Capri. Alternate weeks though you might identify as a young person to be entitled to free public transport, university tuition and maybe a student grant (if they exist anywhere anymore).

There was someone on Twitter earlier claiming that Mexico has recognised the “right” to self-define your age.

Now as age is constantly changing anyway, how is this even supposed to work? Do you choose your age and get older from that point on, or do you stay that age?

“But now I am six, I’m as clever as clever,
So I think I’ll be six now for ever and ever.”

Your date of birth on your birth cert is there, unaltered, as a cold reminder of the minute, hour, day and year. It used to be as you grew from girl to woman, or boy to man, that the record of your sex remained unaltered too.

If you can change one factual record because of a wish, you should be able to change the other record. The whole shebang.

I’m pretty sure you can change your sex on your passport & driving licence very easily. I think my son has changed his. I do not intend to go on holiday with him again so am unlikely ever to see his passport.

He’s changed his bank account title to a female name.

@Cailleach1

Your date of birth on your birth cert is there, unaltered, as a cold reminder of the minute, hour, day and year. It used to be as you grew from girl to woman, or boy to man, that the record of your sex remained unaltered too.

If you can change one factual record because of a wish, you should be able to change the other record. The whole shebang.

This is funny

"Self-styled positivity guru Emile Ratelband thinks age is just a number. And his is a number the Dutchman wants changed.

The 69-year-old TV personality has asked a court in the Netherlands to approve his request for a new birthday that officially would make him 49.

Ratelband says his legal appeal is consistent with other forms of personal transformation that are gaining acceptance and government recognition in the Netherlands and around the world.

Challenging him is transgender male-to-female Jane Fae, a writer who also claims to be a feminist"

Right so is this about forcing female airport staff to pat down transwomen?

Is it about having access to female toilets etc at foreign airports, perving in the female changing rooms and eg removing muslim women’s ability to remove their headscarf in a female-only space?

Is it about not eg getting arrested in Dubai, where it’s a criminal offence for a man to dress as a woman? (Stag holidaymakers: not do drag in Dubai, you will spent the night in jail).

Or is it just men screaming into the wind “validate me validate me” I don’t even know.

@Skysblue

Right so is this about forcing female airport staff to pat down transwomen?

Is it about having access to female toilets etc at foreign airports, perving in the female changing rooms and eg removing muslim women’s ability to remove their headscarf in a female-only space?

Is it about not eg getting arrested in Dubai, where it’s a criminal offence for a man to dress as a woman? (Stag holidaymakers: not do drag in Dubai, you will spent the night in jail).

Or is it just men screaming into the wind “validate me validate me” I don’t even know.

All of that.

www.supremecourt.uk/news/future-judgments.html

The Elan Cane judgment about passports will be handed down next week but the Supreme Court. I'm sure it will make for interesting reading.

The marker on a passport is descriptive, rather than definitive, and every passport issuing authority has their own rules about changing it. Some won't, but others are very liberal.

Your legal sex is the one on your birth certificate. Providers of single sex services should therefore ask to see a birth certificate if they want to be sure.

UK passports can be changed with a letter from a GP, and that has been the case for many years. Transsexuals to my knowledge change them for two reasons.

1. To avoid confusion at immigration. A reasonably well passing transsexual is going to run into problems with a passport with a marker showing their birth sex.
2. To satisfy the two-year "living in the opposite gender" rule for both a GRC and to be referred for GRS.

We don't show our passport when we go through the security scanners in airports. Actually the last four flights I've taken were all domestic, and I had not got a passport with me. I try my best not to set the darned things off. But when I do, it is the woman who will invariably step forward and go over me with the hand held scanner thing.

[I'm transsexual for those who do not know.]

Last time I was patted down as such was at a sporting event. I'd stood in line to get in with my son. Onlu when we got the front did I realise we were in one of several lines of men, while the women were all queuing separately.

It does not bother me who pats me down, really. But before I got to the man at the front, a female steward came over, told me that I had been in the wrong queue, "but never mind" and did the patting down.

This is real life. Should I have kicked up a fuss? Some would say I should have done. But I just wanted to get inside the ground, and they just wanted to do their jobs and clear the queue as quickly as possible.

I think, as a society we need to make a choice:
• Do we allow transsexuals to legally transition, in which case passports will be changed as part of that process, or
• Do we say no. But that still isn't going to stop these issues at airport scanners, sporting grounds and elsewhere where people respond to what they see. Unless we go further, and say that we must express ourselves differently according to our sex.

I think, as a society we need to make a choice:
• Do we allow transsexuals to legally transition, in which case passports will be changed as part of that process, or
• Do we say no. But that still isn't going to stop these issues at airport scanners, sporting grounds and elsewhere where people respond to what they see. Unless we go further, and say that we must express ourselves differently according to our sex.

But those aren't the only options. Why can't we work towards having a society where transsexuals can be out and proud as transsexuals?

The problems arise when transsexuals/transgender people want to conceal their biological sex and/or have legal recognition as the opposite sex.

If we were totally accepting of people who are transgender/transsexual, it would be OK to recognise them as their actual, biological sex, and for them to have documents showing their actual, biological sex, but for them to present as the opposite sex if they wish to, including any physical changes they might want to make to their bodies (as adults).

The problems are totally down to the ludicrous idea that TWAW, TMAM. We don't have to believe that people can change sex in order to accept that some people like to look like the opposite sex.

So at your sporting event, ideally you should be able to say: 'I'm male. I'm a transsexual.' And be patted down by someone of the same sex. This is the sort of acceptance of trans people that we should be working towards.

Whenever this sort of acceptance is suggested, there are cries from the TWAW crowd that this is too much for society to accept, and it's much easier to convince them that people can actually change sex. Acceptance that some people like to look like the opposite sex should be far easier.

But perhaps acceptance of trans people isn't actually the aim.