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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Isn’t it interesting

39 replies

Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/12/2021 07:46

What we can and can’t discuss

I wonder if it’s permissible to discuss the broader issue of why TW can’t have their own inspiring lists to highlight their achievements rather than being included in lists of women

As a biological woman I want to see the achievements of women highlighted. Surely TW would want to see the achievements of TW highlighted?

OP posts:
GrandmaMazur · 07/12/2021 07:52

I would have thought among all the trans pride celebration events there would be ample space to celebrate the achievements of inspiring trans men and wome.

lovelyweathertoday · 07/12/2021 07:53

I would have thought so too.

Whitefire · 07/12/2021 07:54

Well if one is going from the premise is that TWAW why would there need to be a separate list?

LoveGrooveDanceParty · 07/12/2021 07:54

WTF is it always, always about transwomen?

What about transmen??

It’s almost as if it’s actually about men.

🙄 x a million.

BaronessBomburst · 07/12/2021 07:56

What a wonderful idea! Wink

GrandmaMazur · 07/12/2021 07:57

@Whitefire

Well if one is going from the premise is that TWAW why would there need to be a separate list?
But why should that be the view presented by the BBC which is meant to be impartial?

Do they present stories on other issues from a faith-based perspective?

MatildaIThink · 07/12/2021 08:01

@LoveGrooveDanceParty

WTF is it always, always about transwomen?

What about transmen??

It’s almost as if it’s actually about men.

🙄 x a million.

Possibly because far fewer women claim to have become men than the number of men claiming to have become women. Also someone who is genetically male has a considerable advantage when participating in women's sport, where as someone wh was born female has a considerable disadvantage when participating in men's sport, so they are far less likely to receive the attention of winning.
Whitefire · 07/12/2021 08:07

I'm not saying it is my opinion, so I can't actually give reasons, but if TWAW then they don't need reasons and justification. They see it as fact not a matter of faith.

PoisonCrystal · 07/12/2021 08:08

@Whitefire

Well if one is going from the premise is that TWAW why would there need to be a separate list?
Why are TWAW?
lovelyweathertoday · 07/12/2021 08:49

It's interesting how the thread title that has been left up is now completely neutral, just a discussion about 100 women.

Anyone not already aware that any list of women won't all be female will just scroll by.

It's a way of stopping us expressing ourselves. I can see why floralbunting left, but this site does reach a lot of women.

justaftb · 07/12/2021 09:02

The achievement they want to 'earn' the most is the achievement of being recognised for achievements that a woman should have been recognised for.

Whitefire · 07/12/2021 09:37

smacks head on desk

Ask someone who thinks that TWAW, maybe someone like the BBC.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/12/2021 10:20

What about transmen

Because men won't give up their privilege to anyone not born male - if they would then women would be at the top of unisex lists more often, women would sit on more boards and we would not need sex-based quotas.

WinterTrees · 07/12/2021 10:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/12/2021 10:33

Do we have a list of TW's achievements? Might be interesting.

Original poster
Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/12/2021 10:37

Well quite Winter!

Kathryn Bateman Co chair of the Green Party woman’s committee, Paris lees face of Pantene shampoo, Heather Peto graduate of the Jo Cox leadership programme for women, Torrey Peters nominated for the Womens prize for fiction, Laurel Hubbard competing in woman’s weightlifting

So many spaces & places taken….

OP posts:
WinterTrees · 07/12/2021 10:52

Genuinely clueless as to why my post was deleted. Only my second deletion in 18 years on MN, and as a veteran of this battle I'm always extremely careful to tiptoe around talk rules and keep a respectful tone.

I have no idea why raising the point that celebrating the achievements of transwomen would be more positive than perpetuating a victim narrative?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 07/12/2021 11:00

I was surprised too.

I think the monitors are twitchy lately.

WinterTrees · 07/12/2021 11:00

Sorry - read that back and the last sentence is unfinished. No idea why raising that point would be problematic it should say. I'm too cross to type clearly!

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/12/2021 11:49

Further to this, I'd like to see Trans Day of Remembrance framed as a celebration. Because trans people are safe in the UK, the stats are clear.

Who benefits from saying "be careful, they hate you, they'll pick on you for being trans, you are in danger from everyone and everything because this is Terf Island"? Definitely not the young female people who believe themselves to be trans who are ages with my kids. They believe they are about to beaten up all the time. Because that's what the narrative is, if you're not a victim you're about to be a victim - when that is FACTUALLY INACCURATE.

A dead woman every three days, no dead trans woman or trans man in 3 years in the UK, and ever in Scotland.

Why would politicians and trans organisations choose not to celebrate how inclusive our society is when it's Trans day of remembrance? We could show Brazil how it's done.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 07/12/2021 11:54

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Do we have a list of TW's achievements? Might be interesting.
To be honest some of those that have been recently highlighted are truly deserving of acknowledgement. But as the accomplishments of transwomen, male bodied individuals, rather than of women.

And yes, were are the transmen, female bodied individual, and their accomplishments? Google any mix of terms and all you come to is a list of transwomen...

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 07/12/2021 11:55

It's a day for it @WinterTrees

allmywhat · 07/12/2021 13:11

It’s surprising the effect it has. I found that list so uplifting and inspiring, okay so there were a few unnecessary Hollywood types but it was just overall so positive. Then you scroll down and there’s a male face that has got into the list through their campaigns that benefit other males, and it’s so flattening. Particularly in the context that many of these women are from Afghanistan and can’t even show their faces because their sex puts them at risk. I wish we could stop pretending that women have anything in common with the woman-identified.

Original poster
Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/12/2021 15:40

I think this is one of the reasons I struggle with the whole “women & TW are allies” because as far as I can see, TW are taking from women and we get no benefit from their taking. I never see TW saying “we must celebrate biological women in their own right” but we are expected to cheerlead along as our spaces are taken and the words we use to describe ourselves & our bodies removed

OP posts:
Chilver · 07/12/2021 15:48

I was writing on the other thread that I actually had to go look up why the BBC Women's List was created and went on to say that why don't Transpeople have their own list? We should be celebrating their endeavours alongside the Women's List, not in place of! Our role as women is not to validate their role as transwomen; they can organise their own recognition, perhaps even building on the centuries of work women have done to get our own rights recognised (and we are clearly still not there!)

Unfortunately the thread was deleted before I got my say. We'll see if this post stays.

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