Scottish 'sex census' for children will *not* be anonymous

[ArabellaScott]

BBC report yesterday:

'The government insists the census is confidential and voluntary.'

www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-59518427

However the Herald has broken the story that it's neither anonymous nor voluntary:

'the Herald on Sunday has seen privacy documents over the scheme that show that local authorities can act on behalf of children if any answers raise concerns.

This has raised fears that that the controversial survey is a 'named person scheme' through the back door. '

' While the UK's General Data Protection Regulation gives individuals the right to object to the processing of personal data, the information states that where the processing of personal data is for scientific or historical research, or statistical purposes, "these rights to object is more restricted".

...

And it states that parents cannot object to the processing of health and wellbeing data.

"As the data we process is lawfully gathered and necessary for the performance of a task carried out for reasons of public interest, you do not have a right to object to the processing of your personal data," the document states.

It can also not be deleted. '

www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/19762206.new-snoopers-charter-scots-ministers-sex-census-kids-not-confidential/

Some councils are rejecting this survey, I am heartened to see, and several others are reviewing: www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/19762197.scottish-governments-sex-census-kids-rejected-eight-councils/

FUCKS SAKE!

Over and over things for schools - usually materials from 3rd parties- plus info sites aimed young teen upwards- containing things that are just BLINDINGLY OBVIOUSLY - full of content that is totally inappropriate and if sexually abused child/ren in class is just no no no no no.

Everyone has lost their minds. It's really fucking worrying.

Good to see plenty councils saying WTAF, and being reported.

Issues with this I mean FFS they are OBVIOUS to anyone with half a brain.

Age 14 up-

Asking in some detail about sex acts, what age sexuality active etc

1. Child sexual abuse is sadly not particularly rare. Estimates what, usually 1 in 10 ish? I'm sure more than 1 in 20. Even if 1 in 50 that still means any school of medium size + WILL have children who are being sexually abused in the home, by someone trusted, via grooming by older 'boyfriend' etc etc.

And they will get these questions. Just ok kids fill this in.

Just being ASKED I mean Jesus it's so sensitive.

Across the board I imagine lots of children will surely lie, abused or consensual (but still underage).

Contraception? What about situations have no say? How is that going to feel? What if been taken for termination?

What if child thinks this might be a way to let them know I need help without having to say face to face?

Do they have protocols around what to do if a child says first sex age 7?
If a child bursts into tears or walks out?

I mean FFS they MUST have thought about all this. Basic common sense. Basic concern for children on a topic as serious as sex underage. Basic consideration of what impact could be on some children, what things could be disclosed.

I mean that's just basic fucking basic.

Then.

Sex acts pick list. Surely during implication that govt thinks totally normal could have done any/ all of those acts at 14+.

Why this recent inability to understand that children DO NOT have the same knowledge, understanding, context etc to sex as adults?

In fact, many adults indeed would be taken aback at have you had anal sex on a general health and well-being questionnaire. Even from the govt...

How is it in any way appropriate or relevant to ask anyone about oral anal vaginal sex outside a doc office/ clinic/ getting support for something where it's relevant?

I mean school I suppose equivalent work for adults.

Imagine if govt said all employers must survey all staff.

Height
Weight
Diet
Have you had vaginal/ anal sex

I cannot understand what the fuck they are thinking. I'm properly just.. it's incomprehensible.

I'm really interested in the blurb for schools that comes with it.

Specifically to do with-

What to do if child appears distressed, anxious etc.

What to do if child sexual abuse disclosed ie age of first experience in illegal full stop category.

What to do about disclosures of sexual activity disclosed by underage children. Sexually active 15yo days first experience 12. Serious disclosure. What to do.

As age of partner, nature of relationship, consensual or not, no questions to have any way of even guessing.
Two 15 yo is in no way the same as 15 and 40. For example. No way if knowing it's with someone in position of trust etc. So much like that.

It asks for extremely sensitive info that if truth told will mean extremely serious disclosures.

But clearly they're not interested in that side.

I will look and see what the justification is for this full stop.

The official blurb has it covered! Very reassuring...

'What happens if a child or young person needs help, or wants to discuss something, after taking part in the Census?
At the beginning and end of the questionnaire, children and young people will be informed that if any of the Census questions have made them think of any problems, or has raised any issues they are having, then they are advised to speak to someone in relation to the information they have provided in the Census. For example, if pupils are having problems with other pupils (e.g. feeling that they are being bullied), they are advised to talk about this with their parents / carers / teacher / support worker, etc.'

Well then there you go. Onus on child to act. Awesome. Because if a child hasn't told anyone etc. That note will be a game changer for them.

Useless cop out pathetic.

Also say help could come if analyst sees something of concern. They think this vv unlikely. Presumably because analysts focus is large datasets, trends etc.
So there you go.

Also academic achievement going to be linked to the dataset. That must be on individual basis even if a number not a name. If I was 14 or younger I would not feel at all comfy with that.

The adults behind this don’t even need to read the answers. Simply handing these forms out tells children that it’s perfectly normal, even expected, that children routinely have sexual intercourse.

Job done. One simple form replaces months or years of individual grooming.

The extent of the whole survey is massive.

Loads of areas with potential cause for distress.

Too much. Too invasive. Too personal. Way way too much.

Children and young people will be asked questions that cover a wide range of topics, such as:

Their attitude to school
Their perception of achievement
Their perception on the pressure of school work
Their physical activity/exercise
Their eating behaviours
Their general health
Their general wellbeing (life satisfaction)
Their mental wellbeing (S2 pupils upwards)
Their physical or mental health condition
Their sleep pattern
Their feeling of discrimination
Their relationship with peers
Their self-perception (body image)
Their social media and online experience
Their relationships with family / environment
Their relationships with parents/carers
Their resilience
Their involvement in decision making
Their involvement in positive activities
Their caring responsibilities
Their experience of bullying
Their aspirations and career planning
Their involvement in positive activities
Their sedentary behaviour
Their perception on places to play
Their use of alcohol (S2 pupils upwards)
Their use of tobacco (S2 pupils upwards)
Their use of drugs (S4 pupils upwards)
Their relationships and sexual health

They say 20- 40 mins I mean. Really?! To get all that??!!

Gawd - will people stop voting in SNP candidates - it's the way the countries run, crap schooling etc, crap transport, no new jobs - it's not individuals that need brought into line / investigated it's the opportunities offered to them which fails them.

I remember doing something similar to this in England. It must have been in about 1999.

We were told that it was completely confidential and no one would ever know who had answered what. I still felt great unease and decided against disclosing my sexual abuse.

Talking about it with friends as adults, I also know that many of the boys lied and pretended they were more sexually experienced than they actually were in case their answers were seen by anyone.

I children know for a fact that their answers are not going to be confidential, they won’t get anything close to honest answers which renders the whole thing pointless anyway with the potential to cause great distress.

It’s like the people who have come up with this have never known any or even been teenagers.

I did not know that, bloody hell. Got a link or anything?

Fucks sake.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken I remember something similar. I seem to recall for us it was a study on glandular fever and involved lots of questions about how many people you’d been kissing. And guess what? We all went out and kissed as many people as we possibly could to “up” our stats and mess with the survey.

Do these people not think this could encourage the same sort of behaviour - but with sex rather than “just” kissing indiscriminately?

The wording of the questions also really bothers me.

Asking if children have had penetrative
sex in the last 12 months.
Consider being asked that if you had been raped or were being systematically raped. If they want to do this, they need to word the questions very carefully under the guidance of psychologists and safeguarding experts.

And, of course, the whole thing needs to be completely anonymous.

Are these forms being filled in in privacy or could someone look over your shoulder at the screen / photo the screen?
I remember having to fill in a form on starting secondary in the 60s - it included your parents names and jobs. My DF had recently been sacked - I can remember sitting in a horrible sweat not knowing what to write and not knowing what the form was for or who it was for and how important it should be true. Goodness knows what my school friend wrote as she had no Dad (obviously did but he was never around despite several siblings).

Do these people not think this could encourage the same sort of behaviour - but with sex rather than “just” kissing indiscriminately

This whole thing appears to be grooming in plain sight.

Some girl hasn't had anal sex yet, does she tick yes cos it must be normal as it's in a survey for everyone, therefore everyone must be having anal sex and she doesn't want to be called the frigid one. Does she now try anal sex, after all everyone is doing it, cant be that bad. Will maybe get to like it.
Some girl being abused, the man abusing her has found out about the questionnaire, decides it's a brilliant way to abuse more ( less chance of pregnancy, etc) so he has a way of making it normal.
A teacher could use it ffs. Not saying ATALT

The risks with this whole thing are terrible. The optics are terrible, everyone involved in creating it and giving it to children needs their hard drive examining.

@CheeseMmmm

That list is frightening.

This is horrendous. It’s not about finding out if an individual child is being groomed, harassed, bullied, abused and so forth. This is a data collecting exercise. The onus should be on actual adult humans collecting information rather than on children.

This survey promotes grooming, potentially encourages underage sex / promiscuity / alcohol and drug use (see comment on glandular fever), normalises dangerous sexual practices and so forth. I’d also be interested in reading all the questions including those on eating habits. The implications are huge for each topic eg how a bulimic or anorexic child will feel filling this in sitting next to their peers?!

@Terfydactyl

I'm so sorry

There is nothing good about this survey
It will deepen abuse
It will intimidate kids who aren't having sex and make them feel excluded
It will pressurise girls into doing things they don't want to do
The kids won't tell the truth anyway

What a colossal waste of time and money with some frankly dubious people involved.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

The adults behind this don’t even need to read the answers. Simply handing these forms out tells children that it’s perfectly normal, even expected, that children routinely have sexual intercourse.

Job done. One simple form replaces months or years of individual grooming.

There never seems to be any corresponding information that this is actually illegal at their age. Does it even mention that? Is there any reassurance offered in this questionnaire, at all?

Or just an assumption that all teenagers are having sex, including anal, despite the fact that most girls don't want to.

Those questions would absolutely make me think everyone assumes I'm having sex, including anal sex, that it's all fine and dandy and if I'm not, I'm in the minority. You prude...

Can you imagine afterwards? What did you write for question seven, how did you respond?? And all the boys pressuring the girls as to what their answers were.

Awful.

Other studies have recognised that heterosexual anal sex in teens frequently has an element of coercion or it's borderline non consensual, or rape. So they will be asking abuse survivors.

Cheese's list makes it clear to me this is definitely another stab at Named Person but possibly worse, slow handclap for the government that never learns

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Other studies have recognised that heterosexual anal sex in teens frequently has an element of coercion or it's borderline non consensual, or rape. So they will be asking abuse survivors.

YY.

Any girl who says she's having anal sex is, according to the previous study, very likely doing it against her will. And any boy who says he is, with a girl, according to the same study, knows that the girl is doing it against her will.

I wonder if they put those statements in the questionnaire, whether the answers would change.

Is there a question that says would you rather not be having anal sex, or are you pressured to?

Are teens having anal sex? Surely it would be messy sometimes - how do you explain it to the laundry maid (DM).

@TiddlesTheTiger

Wouldn't the survey need an identification number, in order to be de-anonymised?

It is tied to each child's SCN, which is to be entered into each survey.

This SCN (aka Scottish Candidate Number) is their lifetime Scottish qualifications number and accompanies them all the way from their first exam through to professional qualifications. For the rest of their lives.

That was my point CharleyParley in response to :

It's common in social surveys to include a clause that the survey will be anonymous unless there is evidence of significant harm, eg abuse, involvement in terrorism. In some countries this is a legal requirement. In this case, the response would be de-anonymised for that participant only and the relevant authorities notified.

The anonymity of surveys we do at work is a personal bugbear. I work in a relatively small team so by the time I've indicated which team, which location, which sex and which age group, it can only be me. If I was a bit shyer about giving my opinion then I would be put off and I'm sure other people are.

It just demonstrates that collecting data is fraught with all sorts of bias and this survey of our children is no different in that. Especially as I can see no decent reason that the DC should be asked it in the first place or what valid use they could put it to that is worth the upset triggering etc that it will cause.

I see, TiddlesTheTiger, yes you are right. What I don't see is why - just because something is common (in social surveys or otherwise) - that should have any bearing on whether I as a parent consider something to be appropriate for my child or not.

There is a problem with
-informed consent
-data collection process
-data processing
-data storage
-data purpose
-survey design

Also, if children over 12 can consent by themselves, without ever having it explained to them by the data handler in age appropriate language what data protection is and why they might not like to share their data given that it remains tied to their SCN in perpetuity, then it is a serious problem that they cannot ask for their data to be erased. (The regular health and wellbeing survey, administered every three years used to be processed by Ipsos Moro who deleted the raw data after analysis. AFAIK, that's not going to happen this time.)

@YourenutsmiLord

Are teens having anal sex? Surely it would be messy sometimes - how do you explain it to the laundry maid (DM).

This isn't a joke.

The thing I find most worrying as I posted is the fact that child sexual abuse is not uncommon. In the home, trusted friends of family, other adults in positions of trust, grooming by older men, etc.

Plus of course the massive problem which is only just coming to wide awareness (press) about the severity and the scale. 'peer on peer' (mainly boy/s towards girl/s) sexual harrassment, sexual assault, sexualised verbal abuse, rape. In school. And out of school. Coercing to meet, waiting after school etc. Carrying out a serious attack.

And that schools have been generally not doing much if anything, not reporting to police or other child support orgs. If taking action accounts from victims have commonly said the same. Being asked if they were sure, stop making a fuss, often telling the girl to avoid him, yet often leaving in same classes so she is around him every day.