Any teachers willing to give their experience of gender ideology in schools?

[Curiouserandcuriouser1]

Primary or Secondary. I’m interested to know what and where it is being taught and how teachers feel about it. Is there much push back from staff?

Should add that is taught on one RSE lesson during the year. RSE is part of our PSHE curriculum.

I think it’s important to note that this is not just about RSE/PSHE lessons.

It’s about school policies, fundraising for eg Mermaids, assemblies in Pride month. I’ve even seen a maths worksheet that was pushing pronouns.

As a PP said, many education unions, organisations, etc are captured.

Safe Schools is a really excellent website - already linked to on the RSE side, but worth also looking at this which cover equality and diversity red flags.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/redflagsa4.pdf

That is very useful, Leafstamp, I have just read it through and it gives excellent advice.

One thing I am confused by though, is that one the one hand it mentions that children (under 18s) cannot have Gender Reassignment; but it then goes on to say that if a school has a child with gender reassignment they have a protected characteristic so………

Also, I was wondering about the HRT given to transgender people. The leaflet points out the possible harms. As these hormones are presumably given to trans women (natal males) I can see that they wouldn’t necessarily have the exact same effects they do on females, but was wondering if there is proof that they are more damaging - some doctors are even prescribing them non-stop now for post-menopausal women.

Can anyone explain these points?

One thing I am confused by though, is that one the one hand it mentions that children (under 18s) cannot have Gender Reassignment; but it then goes on to say that if a school has a child with gender reassignment they have a protected characteristic so………

This is the difference between having a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) and having the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment. The first is unavailable to children (Under 18s), but the latter can apply equally to children. IMO to legislation is so poorly worded that nearly anyone could claim to have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

That said, it is no different to anyone claiming to have the protected characteristic of religion or belief.

My understanding is that all either of those things mean is that you cannot be discriminated against because of your self declared status, not that you must be treated as actually having that status.

I don't have specific info/knowledge to hand on the HRT point but any medical treatment should be administered on a risk/benefit basis. So women (females) are granted HRT because the benefits outweigh the risks. For men, I can't see how that can be the case, unless the patient is arguing psychological 'harm' of not taking female hormones, which is a common TRA argument.

Thank you for the explanations Leafstamp.

As a point of interest, do you know if the protected characteristic of belief, could be any belief?

They can't be any belief, there are criteria, but non-belief counts as a belief if that makes sense?!

More info here: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/protected-characteristics/religion-or-belief-discrimination/

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/religion-or-belief-guide-to-the-law.pdf

Let me know if you had anything specific in mind.

I assume you know about the Maya Forstater case which essentially made 'gender critical' beliefs a protected belief?

Thank you, yes I knew that the Maya Forstater case established that gender critical beliefs were protected beliefs. ( I was puzzled by why, what I thought was a simple fact, that people are born a sex and sex can’t change, is a ‘belief’ rather than a fact. I think someone on here explained but I have forgotten why it was considered so,)

I did not have any particular belief in mind, but wondered how far this could be taken in practice. You have given the answer, that there are criteria, thank you.

I can also see that ‘non belief’ is a belief.

Thanks too for the links to understanding the position of protected ‘beliefs’ in law which I’ll read later.

From various threads on here, it sounds like individual schools really differ on this, from those that are careful to follow the government guidelines about not implying children are born in the wrong body, to others who have full-on swallowed the kool aid.

I work in further education in additional learning support. It's not taught, yet! But earlier this year I raised the issue in terms of safeguarding the vulnerable autistic girls we have that identify as trans. It was ignored. Even though some colleagues in my dept agree; they haven't raised it formally.

Now there is the nationwide push for EDI, a shiny new LGBTQ+ forum at my work mentioned getting Stonewall in to deliver training to staff and students. I've started an email to challenge this; will be drawing on the safeguarding aspect again, and also the anti-women, erasing lesbian and gay people aspect. It's a hard email to write without ranting; I want to keep it brief. I've already had an anonymous complaint calling me transphobic earlier this year, which I challenged with more resources and evidence.

It's really depressing that gender-reassignment can be correctly taken to mean identifying as the opposite sex. Is this correct? Even for under 18s?

It's really depressing that gender-reassignment can be correctly taken to mean identifying as the opposite sex. Is this correct? Even for under 18s?

A link to this document was posted on another thread today:
www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/technical_guidance_for_schools_england.pdf

Relevant paragraphs:
5.112 Gender reassignment is a personal process (rather than a medical process) that involves a person moving away from his or her birth sex to his or her preferred gender and thus expressing that gender in a way that differs from, or is inconsistent with, the physical sex with which he or she was born.

5.113 This personal process may include undergoing medical procedures or, as is more likely for school pupils, it may simply include choosing to dress in a different way as part of the personal process of change.

5.114 A person will be protected because of gender reassignment once:
• he or she makes his or her intention known to someone, regardless of who this is (whether it is someone at school or at home, or someone such as a doctor);
• he or she has proposed to undergo gender reassignment, even if he or she takes no further steps or decides to stop later on;
• there is manifestation of an intention to undergo gender reassignment, even if he or she has not reached an irrevocable decision;
• he or she starts or continues to dress, behave or live (full-time or part-time) according to the gender with which he or she identifies as a person;

5.112 Gender reassignment is a personal process (rather than a medical process) that involves a person moving away from his or her birth sex to his or her preferred gender and thus expressing that gender in a way that differs from, or is inconsistent with, the physical sex with which he or she was born.

How depressing that this is the best that EHRC can come up with.

How do you "move away from your birth sex"?

If sex and gender are different things how can you move away from something in one and towards something in the other?

That'd be like like moving away from Birmingham and towards next Saturday, surely?

“OldCrone
5.114 A person will be protected because of gender reassignment once:
• he or she makes his or her intention known to someone, regardless of who this is (whether it is someone at school or at home, or someone such as a doctor); “

This more or less seems like self ID already then, all a person, even a school child, j has to do is tell one person. What can schools do other than go along with it if a child identifies as trans?

OP, do you have access to the actual materials? I just saw this line in the staffroom thread by another teacher talking about materials which said "bisexual defined as being attracted to two genders". This is homophobic and contrary to the Equality Act 2010. LGB Alliance are campaigning against this type of homophobia in Schools. So to protect the lovely lesbian and gay students the school must understand that sexual orientation is real and queer theory is a theory.

Thanks @OldCrone - I had read that recently but was hoping I'd read it wrong; it does sound like self-ID is a protected characteristic.

Anyway I will persevere with the safeguarding issues and the issues with Stonewall.

It does seem that self-id implies 'gender reassignment'.

I've been told that means I must refer to a boy-who-identifies-as-a-girl as "she" and "a girl" in all contexts, even when there are no pupils present.

I'm not convinced by this.

@ScrollingLeaves

“OldCrone 5.114 A person will be protected because of gender reassignment once: • he or she makes his or her intention known to someone, regardless of who this is (whether it is someone at school or at home, or someone such as a doctor); “

This more or less seems like self ID already then, all a person, even a school child, j has to do is tell one person. What can schools do other than go along with it if a child identifies as trans?

I think that is how the protected characteristic of gender reassignment has always worked. As soon as you declare your intention to undergo gender reassignment you are protected.

But it's not exactly self ID, since a boy who declares that he is a girl is a boy with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, who cannot be treated less favourably than a boy without that protected characteristic. It doesn't mean that he should be treated the same as a girl.

The law only requires people with a GRC to be treated as their 'acquired gender' (and even then there are some exceptions).

When the Equality Act was passed, I assume that the gender reassignment characteristic was intended for adult transsexuals who were starting on physical treatments so that they would have protection as soon as they started their physical transition. I don't think at that time the possibility of 'transgender children' was even considered.

...a boy who declares that he is a girl is a boy with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, who cannot be treated less favourably than a boy without that protected characteristic. It doesn't mean that he should be treated the same as a girl.

This is important and matches my understanding from previous thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4251618-the-comparator-for-protected-characteristic-of-gender-reassignment?pg=2

Independent secondary school. We've had "school of sexuality education" in to do some workshops, and I was somewhat anxious having read the blurb on some of the members of the team who "proudly queer up" various spaces.

But in fact, they've stuck exactly to delivering what we asked them to (which didn't involve gender ideology at all) and I don't have any complaints (other than obviously introducing themselves using their pronouns, and mentioning LGBTQIA+ inclusivity in passing more than a couple of times. And talking in that really irritating three-rising-notes-at-the-end-of-every-sentence thing, and "speaking TO" a lot of ideas 🙄)

@Leafstamp thanks for all that really interesting info! Have you seen the staffroom thread about gender ideology in schools? There does seem to be genuine concern from many teachers on there as well as some pushback. However, understandably many seem to be afraid for their jobs - it’s hard to believe we’ve got here.

@FindTheTruth no I don’t have access to the materials, but will be asking to see them when my kids start school. Thanks for directing me back to the staffroom thread, some really useful info on there. It concerns me too the presenting and use of queer theory as though undeniable fact, rather than a theory to be critically analysed.

But it's not exactly self ID, since a boy who declares that he is a girl is a boy with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, who cannot be treated less favourably than a boy without that protected characteristic. It doesn't mean that he should be treated the same as a girl.

There is possibly, though, an argument to be made for indirect discrimination. He could argue that treating him as a boy does mean he is treated less favourably than the other boys, because of his PC.

I don't think this has been tested yet.

Thank you OldCrone and LeafStamp for explaining the difference between how gender reassignment and GRC affects how a person should be treated.

Probably it is difficult for teachers to understand these nuances though.

This thread is a reminder of another aspect of all this - the stupidity of running LGBT groups for children in schools as demosntrated in this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4413715-Critic-my-Letter-to-DD-school-regards-LGBT-club.

Take a look at the school's letter (towards the end) where they admit to a parent that they run unstructured groups talking to 11 / 12 years olds about sex and sexuality, child led (any teacher of SRE knows how prepared and careful you have to be with unstructured questions in sex ed lessons for younger children) and worse, with year 11 pupils running some sessions!

So dangerous - both for children and also for adults who are laying themselves open to all sorts of charges in running such sessions lacking in any professional supervision and management.

It’s about school policies, fundraising for eg Mermaids, assemblies in Pride month. I’ve even seen a maths worksheet that was pushing pronouns.

Yes, Minister was a prophecy, not a comedy.

@ScrollingLeaves

Re your question about HRT, there is an interesting paragraph in a Times article about hormones:

It is seldom acknowledged that transitioning is more physically dangerous for girls than boys. Not only does breast-binding damage growing tissue and cause breathing problems, but testosterone’s effect on the female body is far more damaging than oestrogen for males. A girl will have a permanently deepened voice, facial hair, vaginal atrophy, probable infertility and uterine problems that often end in hysterectomy. Transition will be necessary for some but any girl embarking on this path should be fully informed and utterly certain.

Article here: archive.md/t64ri

Thank you, Leafstamp.