How does Stonewall define the word woman?

[custardcreme]

Stonewall say on their website that language is important, and so they have a glossary to explain all the terms. Except (as far as I can tell) ‘woman’ (or ‘man’).

Language does matter and if they or anyone else is going to claim TWAW, as Stonewall do, then they’d better be sure of what a woman is.

Has anyone seen their definition of the word? I’d be very interested to know it.

(Sorry if it’s easily findable, I did google briefly and looked at their website; couldn’t find anything but appreciate that doesn’t mean it’s not out there)

A woman is anyone a man wants to say is a woman.

A woman may not call herself a woman.

This is a question I'd really like answered! I recently listened to the Stephen Nolan podcast which was brilliant, but kept shouting at him to ask his interviewees to define what a woman is. He doesn't seem to address this.

Well they redefined lesbians from same sex attracted females to women who are sexually or romantically attracted to other women, which seems ok until you realise they include men in their definition of women.

Good question.
We know you can get transwomen, women with penises and cis women. So what’s a woman?

Still lacks the definition of ‘woman’

Oh and we know describing women as adult female humans is a hate crime. So we’re not that!

Sorry, that was in answer to Whatsnewpussyhat

A woman is a person who identifies as, feelz they are a woman.

You're right - Stonewall does not give a definition of 'woman' even though other terms in its glossary refer to women, e.g. straight women, cisgender women and lesbians.

A lot of people have asked them!

Still not defining the word woman

It’s madness. If my son asks me what’s a cat, and the answer is any animal that feels like a cat - he’s still going to ask, but what is a cat?

It’s madness. If my son asks me what’s a cat, and the answer is any animal that feels like a cat - he’s still going to ask, but what is a cat?

Yes. The whole "feels like a woman" business relies on us all knowing what a woman is really. We're just not allowed to say so.

@Meagaidh

You're right - Stonewall does not give a definition of 'woman' even though other terms in its glossary refer to women, e.g. straight women, cisgender women and lesbians.

A lot of people have asked them!

I’m sure they have! Do they just ignore the question? I’m really curious as to what they can say that doesn’t destroy their whole ideology.

@custardcreme

It’s madness. If my son asks me what’s a cat, and the answer is any animal that feels like a cat - he’s still going to ask, but what is a cat?

Yes, precisely why it's such a bullshit definition! Completely circular.

They always answer the question. Usually a mix of "it's not up to me to define it, it doesn't have a fixed meaning" and " a woman is anybody who says they are one".

Clear as mud usually.

They cannot argue that language matters and then refuse to define a - perhaps the key term.

It basically no longer has a definition in many circles unless of course it’s a medical situation. Then everyone seems to know that females have uteruses that bear children and have cervices that require smear tests and have ovaries that sometimes gets cysts and have uterine walls that often have fibroids and go through menopause where their fertility ceases and they get hot flushes that nobody cares about etc etc.

Men can always recognise a woman when there’s cleaning to be done or they’re on the search for someone to rape. Otherwise we’re apparently completely indistinguishable for the other sex apparently.

If Stonewall and TWAW allies cannot define the word woman, then TWAW is utterly meaningless.

Isn't woman supposed to be a changing set of societal norms the days? That's a clear enough definition that doesn't include the word woman, isn't it?

Isn't woman supposed to be a changing set of societal norms the days?

Societal norms for what, though?

Certainly would have saved Samuel Johnson a bit of work if he had just put down "a changing set of societal norms" as the definition for every single word.

Even if SW did come up with a useable definition, say (and this is the best I can logically come up with even though I think it's wrong) -

?? woman = female except for anyone who is a trans-man, plus anyone who is a trans-woman ??

which for non-circularity would need a definition of trans-man and trans-woman that doesn't use "man" and "woman", such as

?? trans-woman = male who perceives themself to share the innate qualities of females (excluding those who are trans-men) and wants to make their physical appearance align with that perception and be treated as female ??

(still a bit circular if we similarly define trans-man) -

would it help the debate? It wouldn't persuade me that trans-women are women (although maybe writing it out like would dissuade some who did think that... ). And there would still be disagreement over (for example) who can enter female spaces.

It's something along the lines of woman being an umbrella term that includes cis women and trans women.

Cis women feel comfortable with their female sexed body whereas trans women were born into a male sexed body but strongly feel they should have been born into a female sexed body.

Therefore 'adult human female' is excluding those women born into a male sexed body.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I agree with this or with using the word cis, just answering the question as Stonewall would.

“Nellodee

Isn't woman supposed to be a changing set of societal norms the days? That's a clear enough definition that doesn't include the word woman, isn't it?“

Still doesn’t explain why it didn’t changed for thousands of years but now is presented as a changing set of norms..

I'm guessing a woman must be a type of man?

I'll show my working:

Women aren't the people who give birth or have periods, obviously - those people are birthing bodies and menstruators.

Women can be rapists and flashers. However, penis related things are still generally man things - we don't say "prostate bearer" or "penis wielder", that would be ridiculous!

Therefore women are men. Logic innit.