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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone have any real stats on mental health and using preferred pronouns?

32 replies

Spottybluepyjamas · 28/11/2021 15:54

As the title says, I'm looking for stats around using preferred names/pronouns - particularly for children, but not sure where to go to get accurate ones. I keep seeing stats being shared like 'using preferred pronouns reduces risk of suicide in children by 43%' but I'm not sure where these are coming from, never mind if they're correct or not!

I feel like anyone can just share any stats and no one will question it, especially when it comes to the mental health of children and I'd quite like to rebuff if possible with some real information!

OP posts:
OneEpisode · 28/11/2021 18:41

I think the stats show that being supportive makes the person being supported feel better. That’s it. That’s all any survey shows.

So being supported through transition (social, medical, surgical) feels better than not, when questioned. But mental health doesn’t improve with these transitions when any imperial research is done.

And when transitions end (because there is nothing else medicine can offer) mental health can crash, and suicidal ideation peaks.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/11/2021 19:26

MN as a number of relevant threads with a quick look at putting the following into your favourite search engine:

site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights suicide myths

There are more results in you vary the terms:

site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights suicide trans

Leafstamp · 28/11/2021 19:57

You might find something here OP

www.statsforgender.org/

334bu · 28/11/2021 20:40

One long-ranging study estimated a suicide rate for gender dysphoric people of 0.6%.
Every suicide is a tragedy, and one suicide is a suicide too many. With such a serious issue, accuracy is critical.

A Swedish government-commissioned study [1] found that 39 of 6334 gender dysphoric individuals — 0.6% — died by suicide.

The UK’s largest gender clinic, the Gender Identity Development Service, states that [2]

Suicide is extremely rare.

Similarly, the Chair of the Child and Adolescent Committee for the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), Dr Laura Edwards-Leeper, remarks [3]:

As far as I know there are no studies that say that if we don’t start these kids immediately on hormones when they say they want them that they are going to commit suicide. So that is misguided…in terms of needing to intervene medically to prevent suicide and doing it quickly, I know of no studies that have shown that.

This reinforces the point that talking about suicide is not the same as dying by suicide. While there is evidence [4] that suicidal ideation is higher among gender-dysphoric youth than in the general population, an increase in suicidal ideation rates is not proof of an equal increase in suicide rates themselves.

However, the way suicidality is reported can affect numbers of suicides. A significant body of academic research from across the world, known as the Werther Effect, has found links between certain types of reporting of suicides and increased suicide rates [5].

REFERENCES

[1] Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (2020). Utvecklingen av diagnosen könsdysfori: Förekomst, samtidiga psykiatriska diagnoser och dödlighet i suicid. Socialstyrelsen. [Link]

[2] Gender Identity Development Service (2021). Evidence base. [Link]

[3] Daum, Meghan (2021). “We Feel Like We’re In The Wild West:” Parents of Gender-Questioning Kids Ask Their Own Questions. The Unspeakable Podcast, October 4, 2021. [Link]

[4] Aitken, M., Vanderlaan, D., Wasserman, L., Stojanovski, S. & Zucker, K. (2016). Self-Harm and Suicidality in Children Referred for Gender Dysphoria. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry 55. [Link]

[5] Acosta, F. J., Rodríguez, C. J., Cejas, M. R., Ramallo-Fariña, Y. & Fernandez-Garcimartin, H. (2020) Suicide Coverage in the Digital Press Media: Adherence to World Health Organization Guidelines and Effectiveness of Different Interventions Aimed at Media Professionals. Health Communication 35 (13). [Link]

Statsforgender.org

LonginesPrime · 28/11/2021 21:25

I'd quite like to rebuff if possible with some real information

It might also be worth looking at the studies that have shown a decrease in mental performance for girls/women reminded of their sex before tests - I don't have the details but I think there are a few adult studies and a school-age study out there, IIRC.

Obviously, that's more related to everyone stating pronouns but it might also provide some helpful context depending on your arguments.

RobinMoiraWhite · 28/11/2021 21:37

@OneEpisode

I think the stats show that being supportive makes the person being supported feel better. That’s it. That’s all any survey shows.

So being supported through transition (social, medical, surgical) feels better than not, when questioned. But mental health doesn’t improve with these transitions when any imperial research is done.

And when transitions end (because there is nothing else medicine can offer) mental health can crash, and suicidal ideation peaks.

Happy to offer you some personal stats.

I fought against transition for more than 30 years, including several periods of depression including suicidal ideation. When I transitioned 10 years ago, a great weight lifted from me and I live a happy and authentic life, filled with a calmness and comfort in my own skin that I never knew before.

And my mental health is empricially far better than ever before.

Oh, and I could introduce you to 20 friends and acquaintances who give similar histories.

ArabellaScott · 28/11/2021 21:44

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

Study of over 8k people:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/

RepentMotherfucker · 28/11/2021 21:44

The word 'stats' is doing some heavy lifting there isn't it Robin? Hmm

NotBadConsidering · 28/11/2021 21:49

Happy to offer you some personal stats.

The OP asked for real stats. On pronouns. For children.

The answer OP, is that there aren’t any good stats, because the few studies there are show kids feel better if “supported”, which includes a variety of things. Which makes entire sense because if you tell a young child or teenager that you agree with them then they’re bound to feel happy in that particular moment.

But the studies don’t reflect suicide accurately and they don’t reflect that the confrontation with reality, particularly for teenage girls, is just kicked down the road.

RobinMoiraWhite · 28/11/2021 22:07

@RepentMotherfucker

The word 'stats' is doing some heavy lifting there isn't it Robin? Hmm
I agree. But until the enormous benefits for trans people enabled to live our lives in freedom and peace are recognised, then 'questions' will be interpreted as hate however legitimate they may be.
NotBadConsidering · 28/11/2021 22:14

But until the enormous benefits for trans people enabled to live our lives in freedom and peace are recognised, then 'questions' will be interpreted as hate however legitimate they may be.

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether calling a female child “he” is ultimately helpful Hmm.

Leafstamp · 28/11/2021 22:20

Not quite what you asked for OP, but could be interesting to challenge this by asking querying the impact on the mental health of those who are compelled to express a belief they do not hold. Or who live in fear of ‘slipping up’.

Oft quoted article: fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/11/2021 22:44

@NotBadConsidering

But until the enormous benefits for trans people enabled to live our lives in freedom and peace are recognised, then 'questions' will be interpreted as hate however legitimate they may be.

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether calling a female child “he” is ultimately helpful Hmm.

And it pretty much brings a fair amount of evidence-based scrutiny in health and social care into disrepute if questions are to be interpreted as hate rather than robust appraisal of value-based propositions (where value refers to humanitarian as well as ethical considerations).
RepentMotherfucker · 28/11/2021 22:49

So we're not allowed to ask any questions until Robin has what Robin wants? Otherwise they are hate speech?

I think I pretty much had the same conversation today at home about who had eaten the last packet of salt and vinegar crisps but that was with a four year old.

LonginesPrime · 28/11/2021 23:38

But until the enormous benefits for trans people enabled to live our lives in freedom and peace are recognised, then 'questions' will be interpreted as hate however legitimate they may be.

If you don't have quantitative data, you could just say that.

It doesn't mean something isn't true because there aren't any stats on it. It just means that no-one has funded research on it yet.

Why are you interpreting asking whether there are any reliable statistics out there as hate? Are we talking about science or religion here?

OldCrone · 29/11/2021 00:37

But until the enormous benefits for trans people enabled to live our lives in freedom and peace are recognised, then 'questions' will be interpreted as hate however legitimate they may be.

I think it is generally recognised that there are benefits for anyone, trans or not, when they are able to live their lives in freedom and peace, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at here @RobinMoiraWhite.

Trans people in the UK have the same rights and protections as everyone else. What more do you believe has to be done for the benefit of trans people before you will stop interpreting any questions on the subject of transgenderism as hate?

This thread was started by someone who wanted to know more about whether any statistics existed about the benefits of changing pronouns for children who identify as transgender. I didn't interpret the OP's desire to know more about this as 'hate'. Could you explain why you interpret a wish to understand more via research and statistics as 'hate'?

MultiStorey · 29/11/2021 01:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CheeseMmmm · 29/11/2021 01:43

Personal stats??!!

🙄

Weatherwax13 · 29/11/2021 01:43

Questions do not=hate. How fucking ridiculous.

CheeseMmmm · 29/11/2021 01:45

OP for UK the best stats would be from NHS.

Of course for some reason services like NHS, police etc collecting both sex and gender, giving a huge data set that would massively help the trans population in loads of ways.

Must not happen.

FindTheTruth · 29/11/2021 04:37

pronouns - particularly for children

Adults like Robin is one thing. children are another thing entirely.

there's mounting evidence that teaching gender identity to children is the CAUSE of mental health problems, so I'd suggest starting there rather than jumping to pronouns.

Leafstamp · 29/11/2021 04:42

Section 6 here might be worth a read safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/redflagsa4.pdf

(Same document as just posted by FindTheTruth on another thread)

FindTheTruth · 29/11/2021 04:45

I'd quite like to rebuff if possible with some real information!

Stephanie Davies Arai has testimonies aka real information on the devastating impact on mental health of children. Mental health is mentioned 9 times in this video clip

FindTheTruth · 29/11/2021 04:46

❤️leafstamp

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