A woman driven out of her therapy group by a trans woman's presence

[PostingForTheFirstTime]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10249633/Rape-victim-forced-quit-therapy-sessions-feels-threatened-6ft-trans-woman.html

Such a terrible situation Sarah

@NecessaryScene

Wow, that article is probably worth its own thread.

For Mridul, the question of trans inclusivity ultimately goes back to the very roots of exclusion — and the failure to build an intersectional VAWG sector lies with those who helped create it and maintain institutional power today.

“These services were set up by white women, and they mainly cater to white cis women,” she says. “So, our journey to inclusion has not just begun with inclusion of trans people. It’s about the inclusion of any other minority who has been historically, and even currently, been excluded from how our services are organised.”

Mridul claiming that female only services have excluded minority ethnic women (show me the evidence) and therefore men should be allowed to join is some revolting misdirection

@Beckert

Can't we start a new support group for Sarah and othe rwomen that doesn't allow biological males in (as allowed by law)

It's certainly what's needed.

In Brighton? It would be picketed and shut down.

I am so sorry that you had to suffer such childhood experiences and for what you have been forced to endure when you sought group therapy in what should have been a safe, woman-only space. Thank you for speaking out in the national press and I applaud your courage for doing so during this Orwellian nightmare.

I am so sad at that FB group response, FFS they can't even centre a rape survivor.

I'm sorry, Sarah. Thank you for having the courage to talk about what happened.

Rape counseling services should centre women.

If transwomen have suffered from abuse then they deserve counseling services that centre them too but not at the expense of women from being able to have single sex services.

This is just simply not on.

@IamSarah

Hi OP, thanks for sharing this. I am Sarah from the article. I'm a regular on here but NC for this as nervous about backlash from trans activists.

Happy to answer any questions, particularly from anyone who thinks I'm in the wrong or being hateful.

Hi, Sarah. I read the article and thought your treatment was appalling. I wish you all the best.

We often talk about women-only spaces in terms of male violence but what's more common is men as an inhibiting presence. It's just far easier for women to be open and honest and to connect with each other when men are not around. Women-only company isn't actually about being women, it's about being human beings, free from the male gaze or male judgement, and not always having to consider male feelings. You only have to look at how much better girls do in single-sex education to see how damaging and repressing just the presence of males can be.

There are men-only support groups or those Men in Shed-type groups that help men's mental health and provide friendship networks. I can see the value of these things and can't imagine being crass enough to destroy one by imposing myself into the company.

@Meagaidh

When men enter women's spaces they attempt to centre themselves. Even if women are able to complain, they eventually self-exclude and are therefore deprived of the help and support they need.

We need SOS protests here like the ones in Ireland yesterday. Does anyone know of groups organising these?

Try A Woman's Place?

We often talk about women-only spaces in terms of male violence but what's more common is men as an inhibiting presence. It's just far easier for women to be open and honest and to connect with each other when men are not around. Women-only company isn't actually about being women, it's about being human beings, free from the male gaze or male judgement, and not always having to consider male feelings

Such a good point. It's not just about being traumatised and/or afraid (although those are quite understandable responses, especially in this context). Women-only spaces are a special thing, that all cultures have observed throughout history. Women sometimes just need time away from males. It's not heresy to say so.

Privacy, dignity, peace. The dynamic of a single sex space is different to that of a mixed space.

@EsmaCannonball

We often talk about women-only spaces in terms of male violence but what's more common is men as an inhibiting presence. It's just far easier for women to be open and honest and to connect with each other when men are not around. Women-only company isn't actually about being women, it's about being human beings, free from the male gaze or male judgement, and not always having to consider male feelings. You only have to look at how much better girls do in single-sex education to see how damaging and repressing just the presence of males can be.

There are men-only support groups or those Men in Shed-type groups that help men's mental health and provide friendship networks. I can see the value of these things and can't imagine being crass enough to destroy one by imposing myself into the company.

I completely agree with this.

I can see the value of these things and can't imagine being crass enough to destroy one by imposing myself into the company.

I think we've had threads about this before - there are relatively isolated incidents of women doing this* but, notably, they don't want other women included because it would ruin their "I'm not like other women/Queen Bee/cool girl" vibe.

*In some areas, women want access literally to a shed of tools and to be around other people with particular craft skills. Understandable, but not a reason to disrupt the ethos of a much-needed male support network.

So sorry this happened to you Sarah, but I applaud your bravery in speaking out.

Have you thought about directly contacting Nancy Kelley and asking her to intervene on your behalf? After all it's her organisation that has led to these 'inclusive' policies that exclude women. She's being paid a lot of tax payer's hard-earned cash, and she very clearly said on Woman's Hour that she thinks women ought to have a right to single-sex spaces. If you sent an email then it should end up on her desk at some point.

I'd be very interested to see her response.

I tried posting in a local women's Facebook group to see if anyone knew of women's only services. My post was swiftly removed by admin. Trans activists really, really don't want women to have these spaces.

What an appalling response.

You did nothing wrong Sarah and you have been badly let down by the people who should be there to help.

Got myself on Twitter. Open to speaking to anyone about my experience if it helps women get the services they need.

You are so incredibly brave Sarah, I am angry and sickened by the way you've been treated - shame on all of them, including that FB group.

@IamSarah

Thank you for the messages of support. Once the charity told me their groups weren't for me they completely stopped responding my emails and made it clear I wasn't welcome back.

All I asked was for one separate group which wasn't accessible to people born male which is completely legal and even supported by the CEO of Stonewall.

Really upset with how they've treated me, and completely dismissed my concerns, hence why I've shared the story.

I remember reading your story on Mumsnet and was thinking of you when I heard CEO of stonewall on woman’s hour. They must bring pressure to Rape crisis and similar to protect women if the words she said are to mean anything.

The suggestions about starting our own refuges (again) - Posie Parker recently tried this but didn't get enough support IIRC.

There are still some XX services around. It makes more sense surely to support them to the max.

@EsmaCannonball

We often talk about women-only spaces in terms of male violence but what's more common is men as an inhibiting presence. It's just far easier for women to be open and honest and to connect with each other when men are not around. Women-only company isn't actually about being women, it's about being human beings, free from the male gaze or male judgement, and not always having to consider male feelings. You only have to look at how much better girls do in single-sex education to see how damaging and repressing just the presence of males can be.

There are men-only support groups or those Men in Shed-type groups that help men's mental health and provide friendship networks. I can see the value of these things and can't imagine being crass enough to destroy one by imposing myself into the company.

Yes to this.

I was offered the same service but didn't want any of their counselling because of this issue. I didn't feel I could trust a service that can't even put its clients safety at the top of their list. I did tell my ISVA why I didn't feel safe with them. Not the person herself, the ethos of the whole organisation. So sorry you went through that

@Rightsraptor

The suggestions about starting our own refuges (again) - Posie Parker recently tried this but didn't get enough support IIRC.

There are still some XX services around. It makes more sense surely to support them to the max.

I remember reading her saying she was thinking about it but didn’t see anything after that

@IamSarah you are so incredibly brave about all this & I hope you get support on Twitter

From one survivor to another @IamSarah

Hi Sarah
You are not alone.

In Bristol, the Womankind counselling service is now avoided by any woman who needs counselling in a female only environment as they welcome transwomen. A friend of mine who needed female only counselling/ group to overcome male abuse/ trauma was advised that transwomen are 'over represented' in their clientele and they thought it would be too traumatic for her to attend.

The Freedom Programme run by Nextlink housing in Bristol also used to treat transwomen as women (I don't know any women who have been referred to them recently) , even though they know women who need single sex support to overcome male coercive control / abuse could not attend.

Nextlink advised women in this situation that women can be allocated a female only group at the point of joining but it may change, and in any case all women must accept that the group leaders are all required to believe and act on the belief that transwomen are women (so if your abuser is a transwoman, for example transwidows and children, who are often referred to the Freedom Programme by police) will have to accept further gaslighting or self exclude.

As well as seeing your input in the press Sarah, this issue was raised by the Children of Transitioners in their GRA submission months ago, and I have seen on the Transwidows twitter feed recently that Victim Support also now state women are abusers if they don't believe or say their husbands and fathers /transwomen are women, so the options for GC women to receive support are few and the problems increasing.

It would be worth anyone reading this sending a short email to the victim's commissioner as she may make a difference: [email protected]