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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Billy Bragg's 'sexuality' - is 'trans' a sexuality?

90 replies

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2021 13:44

Just thinking about Billy Bragg's song.

How is 'trans' a sexuality? I thought it was an 'identity', but it seems if LGBQ all relate to sexualities, there must be a reason the T is put in with sexualities?

If it's NOT a sexuality, then why aren't other 'identities' added into the LGBTQetc acronym?

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FionnulaTheCooler · 27/11/2021 13:53

If it's NOT a sexuality, then why aren't other 'identities' added into the LGBTQetc acronym

There are, it now includes intersex and kink, its all covered under the LGBT+. At this point the + covers so many things that pretty much anyone can claim to be included in it.

jeaux90 · 27/11/2021 14:20

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ArabellaScott · 27/11/2021 14:31

Intersex isn't a sexuality at all - disorders of sexual development or intersex conditions are genetic conditions.

But LGB are all sexualities. So why add 'T' into a list of sexualities?

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Artichokeleaves · 27/11/2021 14:34

Thing is though, if you take the sexuality aspect (sex based attraction) out of the LGB there is no defining feature remaining to link those people together into a homogenous group or identity.

Kink, yes, I can see that one. That is a uniting aspect of sexuality. A at a push, yes I can see that one, a uniting aspect of sexuality. I admit a lot of the rest of the alphabet now confuses me.

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2021 14:44

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Artichokeleaves · 27/11/2021 14:46

Under the Stonewall umbrella many diverse groups etc etc etc....

Whatsnewpussyhat · 27/11/2021 14:47

There has been a massive push, especially in the last year to remove the 'sexual' part of ever word relating to attraction.

It should be sexual orientation. Which is self explanatory. But the male 'women' won't allow that as it provides evidence that they are, in fact heterosexual males and not lesbians.

So Stonewall and friends slyly changed it to sexuality, which used to mean what turned you on, not the sex you are attracted to. I've noticed it sneaking in on lists of protected characteristics too. It's very deliberate.

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2021 14:48

Er, I have to admit that confuses me, Whats. So LGB isn't classed as a sexuality?

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ArabellaScott · 27/11/2021 14:49

Christ, do NOT google umbrella sexualities, btw. Confused

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KittenKong · 27/11/2021 14:55

The man is a twit, and obviously has tickets to sell. Wasn’t he on tv recently? That wouldn’t have happened if he handnt come out (again) as a woman hater.

WallaceinAnderland · 27/11/2021 15:06

Trans is not a sexuality. However, the original sex that the transperson has transitioned from would potentially make them same sex attracted. For example a person born female could be same sex attracted to other females and if they transition, they become 'straight' in their eyes as they no longer think of themselves as female.

This can also work the other way where a straight female transitions and becomes a gay man. I think this is why some transpeople find dating a bit of a minefield as most people are attracted to a sex not a gender but if they are straight, they wouldn't date opposite sex, same gender, for example.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 27/11/2021 15:11

@ArabellaScott

Er, I have to admit that confuses me, Whats. So LGB isn't classed as a sexuality?
LGB and straight are sexual orientations based on sex.

Sexuality could be anything and everything.

It's about conflating words and meanings again. Some people might use sexuality to mean orientation too but by only using sexuality, it blurs the lines and allows other letters to be added.

Apologies if this makes no sense. It does in my head. Grin

ArabellaScott · 27/11/2021 15:16

Ah, does he, Kitten? The article he wrote for New Statesman popped up on my suggested reads. Surely he wouldn't cynically jump on a contentious issue just for the clicks?!

Wallace Confused

Whats I am mulling it over, and it seems to me to suggest, using the Stonewall version of 'sexuality' to be locating all of one's identity within the self, whereas an 'orientation' is located on the connection between one person and another(s).

I'm not sure I quite understand the difference between a sexuality and an orientation, though. Sorry; I am trying!

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Artichokeleaves · 27/11/2021 15:42

There is a move on the part of Stonewall, heard numerous times lately, to push the idea that the connecting factor of LGBT+ is solely a political position and belief.

Which is obviously nonsense. Lesbians for example are a diverse group of all colours, creeds, abilities, faiths, races, and the one and only thing that they all have in common is that they are all exclusively same sex attracted. That is what lesbian means. There is no other factor that unites that group.

Once LGBT+ is reduced to 'believers and supporters of x political position', some lesbians are in that group, some are out of it, Stonewall goes on happily repeating that it supports and represents all LGBT+ people (but has actually cast out all the politically non compliant ones) and yet is telling govt etc that they represent all LGBT+ people and look, none of the people in their ranks disagree on their politics!

It's using the current lingering faith and trust in 'supporting LGBT+ is a great thing' and that words still mean what most people think they mean, while quietly achieving political aims, some of which are in actual fact openly homophobic, and which lead to confusions such as the bill on conversion therapy.

So if the meaning of LGB has been gently shifted (and T+ since again, we have seen that LGBT+ excludes those of other political beliefs, meaning 'of the same politics' rather than 'united by the T characteristic', it's reasonable to consider and unpack what other meanings are tucked beneath current vocabulary.

There are after all, beneath the Stonewall umbrella, many diverse groups forming TQ, all of whom would relate differently to the terms of sexuality. A male cross dresser who identifies as a man is not for example expressing the T sense in the same way as a teenaged girl with severe dysphoria.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 27/11/2021 15:45

This is one of the many waffly meanings of sexuality found online.

"Human sexuality is the way people experience and express themselves sexually. This involves biological, erotic, physical, emotional, social, or spiritual feelings and behaviors. Because it is a broad term, which has varied with historical contexts over time, it lacks a precise definition"

I personally see it as separate to someone's sexual orientation which has a definitive meaning based on the sex of people you are attracted to, innate, and see sexuality as what people are turned on by.

I am sexually attracted to men. (Orientation)
The type of men I'm attracted to, how I express myself sexually etc. I class as sexuality. Learned through life experiences and choices.

I suppose it comes down to whether you see sexuality and sexual orientation as having the same meaning or not.

Artichokeleaves · 27/11/2021 15:48

@Whatsnewpussyhat

This is one of the many waffly meanings of sexuality found online.

"Human sexuality is the way people experience and express themselves sexually. This involves biological, erotic, physical, emotional, social, or spiritual feelings and behaviors. Because it is a broad term, which has varied with historical contexts over time, it lacks a precise definition"

I personally see it as separate to someone's sexual orientation which has a definitive meaning based on the sex of people you are attracted to, innate, and see sexuality as what people are turned on by.

I am sexually attracted to men. (Orientation)
The type of men I'm attracted to, how I express myself sexually etc. I class as sexuality. Learned through life experiences and choices.

I suppose it comes down to whether you see sexuality and sexual orientation as having the same meaning or not.

Wouldnt that suggest T being intended to be understood as a form of sexual expression? Again very wide groups beneath that one umbrella.
IntemperateSpirits · 27/11/2021 15:52

It's probably easiest to explain as "Billy's a twat with tickets to sell" tbh.

Masugamanuts · 27/11/2021 16:12

I don't get it at all Trans is not a sexuality. You can be a gay trans person, a bi trans persy, a straight transperson.

I think it makes as much sense having trans in with LGB as it does being with black rights and it annoys me greatly!

jeaux90 · 27/11/2021 17:06

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abitofadvice1234 · 27/11/2021 17:45

The reason is quite simple actually! It's all about gender non conformity.

The main focus of LGBT rights campaigns in the second half of the 20th century and the beginning of this one have been focused on accepting different sexualities and combatting homophobia, but, since the beginning there have always been trans people (though they were known by different terms in years past) in these movements. Why?

Because the problem that homophobes and transphobes have against the two groups is one and the same, the breaking of traditional gender roles.

Being homosexual means an inherent breaking of prescribed gender roles and gendered scripts. So much of culture is focused on and based on heterosexuality and binary gendered scripts, so any deviation (including being homosexual and living as such) is fought against.

Homophobia has never been about the actual sex acts. Think about the 70s, 80s, and 90s, when people were making fun of gay people/laughing at them. Do you remember that many jokes about anal? Well, there might have been some, but the answer is no. The jokes were about the gender breaking. The feminine prancing gay man. The masculine lesbian woman. That breaking of prescribed gender roles is the thing.

So, that's why trans is included, because of all the letters in the acronym they break from their assigned gender roles the most, by choosing to the social and physical role of the other gender. They are going the other way, against societal prescription.

And we all fit together under that umbrella.

Artichokeleaves · 27/11/2021 18:11

Um.....

No, homosexuality isn't about gender non conformity, its about a sexual preference other than heterosexuality. Not all lesbians looked masculine, not all gay men looked feminine, two highly butch male steel welders having sex would still have faced imprisonment until less than a century ago, and the death penalty if you go back another century.

I'm a lesbian who thinks gender roles are unhelpful and untrue stereotyping and doesn't believe they have anything to do with sex, and that doesn't stop me being LGBT+ because the politics/gender beliefs don't affect the fact I'm homosexual. And I have no problem at all with trans people breaking whatever gender stereotypes they like, I'm all for it. I'm only against removing female people's sex based rights.

Artichokeleaves · 27/11/2021 18:13

And yes, homophobia is largely about basic moral disgust, and in men a fear of sexual vulnerability. The toxic masculinity policing is tied up in it, but that's the root of all the jokes you're talking about, and the 'backs against the wall boys' nastiness I remember from those decades.

kittenkipper · 27/11/2021 18:14

Abitofadvice- ime the abuse and insults, jokes and references were and are ,over whelmingly sexual. Lesbians particularly. My memory serves with crude hand tongue gestures being the norm, and that men are happy for women to wear trousers but NOT for them to reject men sexually. Jus needing a good dick, converting lesbians after a shag, prowling gay bars and fetishisation of "girl on girl" is my experience of homophobia. It seems very much about sex, and male entitlement to women's bodies.

Joystir59 · 27/11/2021 18:15

Speaking as a lesbian there is no logical reason to lump the TQI in with the LGB. LGB are about sexual orientation, the others are not. The T is homophobic! Stonewall used to be LGB until recent years

Joystir59 · 27/11/2021 18:17

Homosexuality isn't a preference, it's just part of who I am