Billy Bragg's 'sexuality' - is 'trans' a sexuality?

[ArabellaScott]

Just thinking about Billy Bragg's song.

How is 'trans' a sexuality? I thought it was an 'identity', but it seems if LGBQ all relate to sexualities, there must be a reason the T is put in with sexualities?

If it's NOT a sexuality, then why aren't other 'identities' added into the LGBTQetc acronym?

I simply cannot see any logical reason why these two entirely different concepts are conflated into somehow being the same group of people, and neither do I see why it has become an article of faith that one must believe they are in order to support trans and other gender non-conforming people’s right to be accepted.

It's notable that the core demand of "trans rights" is the elimination/suppression of someone else's axis of oppression. Much intersectionality.

It's an insistence that Sex Doesn't Matter.

That's the sole point of contention here. It's not "inclusion" versus "exclusion." It's Sex Matters versus Sex Doesn't Matter.

And it's a bit rich for male people to be telling female people that Sex Doesn't Matter.

The slightest glimpse at the way people behave towards other people in this debate shows that it very much does. Indeed, it's thrown it into sharp relief.

No other civil rights movement has ever demanded the unrecognition of another group.

@Artichokeleaves

Though online I’ve seen what you mean in this complaint, in my every day life, and queer/lesbian spaces I’ve seen little
to no issue at all, and cis and trans women have shared spaces just fine, and the inclusion of trans women has allowed them to escape from abuse and greatly improve their lives, with no cost to cis women in the slightest, and at times even some benefit.

The sexual harassment at high school wasn’t just that. Being closeted as trans threw me into shame spirals and pushed me to the margins. Especially as a young person I was incredibly Vulnerable because

And people took advantage of that vulnerability. I bounced between abusive relationship to abusive relationship. My first boyfriend tried to assault me. I was constantly sexually harassed. I was raped 3 times. I still feel the hands and hear the words.

This isn’t particularly shocking and happens to lots of women, but I went through this without support from other women. I was so ashamed of my gender issues and my transness that I just pushed everything down and away. The shame was all encompassing.

And, admittedly, I had quite a bad time of it, but not the worst. My other trans friend got pulled into sex work at a young age. The moment she sleeps she just starts thrashing.

I was a stranger to my family. I was full of shame. I’d go through flashbacks of abuse. I found my body truly disgusting (dysphoria).

But, I got trauma therapy and transitioned. I stopped hiding myself. I was open, and my family accepted me, and the people around me accepted me.

Now my friends have a better friend. My girlfriend has a girlfriend that she loves. I hang out with other gay women and there’s no issue. My existence is positive for myself and for other people.

I see the rhetoric you are talking about sometimes in trans spaces “genital preferences are transphobic,” etc.... But within trans spaces it usually get’s shouted down. I hear it from overzealous allies more than anything else.

But, what I do see is my partner getting told her identity as a lesbian is invalid because she’s attracted to me. That any man that would be attracted to me is gay, and faces that derision.

So, while I do understand the aversion to the rhetoric of an extreme minority of the community, I don’t think the negatives of including trans women outweigh the positives at all.

I don’t think the negatives of including trans women outweigh the positives at all.

Of course it'll work out for you. How do you think the women who can no longer access single sex spaces feel?

You tell us inclusion works well for you. Great. I've just been reading about a woman who can't access support to help deal with her trauma because the space includes a male transwoman.

What happens when inclusion of one group excludes another? How is that fair?

with no cost to cis women in the slightest, and at times even some benefit

Says you. Many, many women have been affected by being forced to 'include' males in their single sex spaces, but you don't give a shit about those women. Why can't trans have their own shelters etc separate if needed and stop stamping all over female boundaries.

Also, stop with the cis, most of us on here don't pray at the alter of gender ideology, which is inherently harmful to females and only benefits males.
We are women. Simple as. No need for any prefix.
Transwomen are transwomen because they are male. Separate and distinct sex class. You wanting to opt out of your sex class does not entitle you to insert yourself into ours.

@ArabellaScott

I’m guessing because that woman is incredibly triggered by people who are born male and visibly so?

Well my heart goes out to her, i’ve been in similar situations. There’s a particular color/haircut that’s popular with a lot of other queer people that makes me incredibly triggered. It’s awful. I go into flight or fight. But I can’t really ask people with that hair not to get support for their own trauma
can I?

Most rape victims are women. Virtually all sex assaults are committed by males. Most rape victims require single sex spaces. Haircuts are neither here nor there.

Though online I’ve seen what you mean in this complaint, in my every day life, and queer/lesbian spaces I’ve seen little to no issue at all, and cis and trans women have shared spaces just fine,

That's lovely for you.

My experience is different. I'm the one experiencing homophobia and who would be made unwelcome in these wonderful spaces you speak of because I need a female only accessible lesbian environment. You wont have met me or any other lesbian or woman who cannot use mixed sex spaces for very obvious reasons - they won't be in your lovely mixed sex spaces.

But we're the ones who have to run the underground meeting places to be allowed a space of our own, and the ones the wrapped barbed wire baseball bats are for, and the ones tossed out of pride for being homosexual. So I'm so pleased for your lovely experience but hello - sharing mine over here. And there's not many rainbows and butterflies where I'm standing. Women like me exist too.

• and for what it's worth the women in question doesn't have to ask for a male free space; the Equality Act makes specific provision for just such a situation, because almost all people instinctively understand why a woman who has been raped would want a single sex support service.

[quote abitofadvice1234]@ArabellaScott

I’m guessing because that woman is incredibly triggered by people who are born male and visibly so?

Well my heart goes out to her, i’ve been in similar situations. There’s a particular color/haircut that’s popular with a lot of other queer people that makes me incredibly triggered. It’s awful. I go into flight or fight. But I can’t really ask people with that hair not to get support for their own trauma
can I?[/quote]
...... I'm sorry, did you just dismiss the specific sex based issues for many females because of your panic response to a haircut?

Are you serious?

No. You cannot expect the rest of the world to manage your triggers for you. You can however tolerate other people having their needs met alongside yours and realise there are sex based issues for females that do not vanish when male people find them a bit inconvenient.

You also cannot expect female people to continue patiently listening to your views when you are head patting them in this patronising way.

[quote abitofadvice1234]@ArabellaScott

I’m guessing because that woman is incredibly triggered by people who are born male and visibly so?

Well my heart goes out to her, i’ve been in similar situations. There’s a particular color/haircut that’s popular with a lot of other queer people that makes me incredibly triggered. It’s awful. I go into flight or fight. But I can’t really ask people with that hair not to get support for their own trauma
can I?[/quote]
JFC. I actually quite liked your posts up til now.

Please, please consider just how privileged and tone deaf your comment is. I am very sorry that this happened to you, but your terrible experience with one individual person giving you fear of a particular hair colour is not the same thing as living with a constant background of grinding indignities and occasionally a forefront terrifying assault, reinforced again and again by cultural sexism, that female people face from a procession of different males over their lives.

If it's reasonable to expect all the members of the 50% of the human race with stress reactions to mixed sex spaces to just get over themselves because you manage your haircut response even though it's tricky for you...

then you can go teach TW to just get over themselves and their fears of assault and dysphoria and distress and use male spaces. Or would you think that was a level of insensitivity and naivety to the reality of the issues that is quite offensive really? Because that's how I perceive what you are saying, and I don't think you'd dream of saying it to male people and thinking that was ok.

@Blibbyblobby I’m sorry to get pithy. That woman is probably struggling quite a bit and it was uncalled for me to be rude about it. She’s probably having an incredibly hard time getting through the process and any roadblock in the process to accessing resources for trauma recovery can be heartbreaking. I should have had more empathy in the moment. She deserves it.

However, I and other women like me also deserve that empathy too, and in the original responses to the post detailing how I was forced to the margins, and then abused, and raped multiple times there, I saw little to none.

I know that my existence as a woman, and my relation to other woman as such has been a positive. I have been a first point of contact for a number of my friends who are SA victims, and my openness about my SA experiences have made that so. If I had not transitioned, or been allowed to transition, I would not have been able to help them get the resources they need.

My original purpose here was to explain why the T was in LGBT, and I was able to explain well. I’ve gone a bit beyond that, so I think I’m done with posting.

I hope i’ve given some food for thought about the experiences of trans women.

Thanks

However, I and other women like me also deserve that empathy too

We can have empathy for people like you, however, that should not come at the expense of 50% of the population who are having their legal protections as females removed to accommodate a subset of the male sex class.

The T was added for financial reasons and so TRA's could piggyback their nonsense, homophobic ideology onto a movement already accepted by society.

I suspect the T is included because transexual males either are homosexual (attracted to men) or are claiming to be homosexual (attracted to women) or bisexual (both).

Warwick Uni included U in their LGBTQUA+ with U standing for Undefined. For people whose sexuality or identity weren't labelled. So that's a hell of a big umbrella for the whole human race now.

LGBTQUA+ for people who either use or don't use labels for their sexual or gender identity. So inclusive that literally nobody is left out. Of course it is hard to be a group promoting the needs of, well, everybody, so I expect it will be grand platitudes about human rights whilst doing bugger all for the actual needs of LGB people.

abitofadvice I'm sorry that you experienced male sexual violence and assault. Unfortunately although it is the law that rape counseling services can offer single sex provision, unfortunately in practice many of these organisations have been ideologically captured by the Sex doesn't Matter brigade and think the only way they can support TW is by repeating TWAW and making previously female single sex groups mix sexed. Whereas really a trans centered group of peers who understand that aspect of what trans sexual assault survivors are going through seems more supportive logically.

You understand that sex does matter or transition wouldn't have been important to you.

Feminists are interested in breaking down the gendered boxes, not re-sorting people into which box they fit best in, because actually most people are gender non-conforming.

@abitofadvice1234

Thank you for rethinking your comments.

I'm sorry, because this is not going to be easy for you to read, but I hope you will consider it with the same openmindedness that you hoped your comments were read in.

When you claim womanhood for yourself as a male-bodied person, you by necessity impose a version of womanhood on all woman which excludes any experience that emanates from being female.

And yet, those experiences still exist and they still happen to us because of our bodies.

Those of us who have female bodies experience a specific type of threat because of the meanings and entitlements society, and especially males within society, construct around our bodies. We become unpeople: blank slates for male people to realise their own stories upon. And so our experience of assault at the hands of males is inextricably tied into those wider cultural relationships between male and female.

So when, whether intentionally or not, you take the female body out of womanhood, you take away our ability to make sense of what happens to us as female-bodied people under patriarchy.

So while it is wonderful and valuable that through your experiences you have come to be a supporter and aid to women, and I am very happy for you that those particular women do accept you as a woman, it's not ok for you to take that relationship you have with your friends and use it to dismiss female people's experiences and needs wholesale.

abit several people, me included, shared sympathy for your abuse. It didn't go unheard or unrecognised.

What you have failed to do in your educating females is listen to or take on board anything they have to say. You see your visit here as to give females food for thought and enlighten them; they have no food for thought to give you. And your posts are very much centred all around you.

You keep explaining your part in the group known as women. However I wish you had more time and empathy for other women, in the same way you require it from other women and reproach them for not providing you with what you feel is enough of it. You force team with them, but you don't see them as equal to you and their voices are not of interest. Their needs and issues are not of interest. You don't want to know or engage.

Yes. It's been food for thought. It always is.

I’m sorry to get pithy. That woman is probably struggling quite a bit and it was uncalled for me to be rude about it. She’s probably having an incredibly hard time getting through the process and any roadblock in the process to accessing resources for trauma recovery can be heartbreaking. I should have had more empathy in the moment. She deserves it.

The woman in question should NOT have to have an incredibly hard time to access a single sex rape crisis service ffs. How big of you to admit you should have had empathy for her, it speaks volumes that you didn't.

This is what your gender ideology agenda leads to - no spaces that are single sex for women, none. The exclusion of women at their most vulnerable and when they are in the most danger, slow hand clap, how very fucking progressive, how very fucking great for women.

Just catching up.

ABIT thanks for your posts. It's really interesting to read posts like yours which are thoughtful and provoke discussion even if there a disagreements.

I have always agreed with you on sexuality being a key, one of if not the most important parts of enforced gender roles. I don't tend to get much agreement when I mention it and understand why but to me it's clear.

Heterosexuality is massive in sex role. Pushed like mad and constantly from tiny.

The beautiful princess gets saved by the handsome prince and they get married and happily ever after.

The enormous amount of entertainment from across history having boy meets girl as Central or secondary or even just there because that's what's done.

I mean. Romeo and Juliet. Plenty of ancient Greek legends. (Not great at history there will be countless!). Indiana Jones.. Star wars. The constant bollocks male pleasing idea that the man who is weird, hopeless, incapable of communication, is a sex pest/ minor sex offender. Or just a total sexist arsehole who treats her like shit... Etc etc.

And he gets the way out of his League gorgeous woman every time. Or realises that the quiet best friend who's in love with him is the one for him.

I mean it's endless.

Heterosexual.
Having a partner is imperative and it's fine for men to do all sorts of shit to get the girl.
And she always falls for this utter dick.
Man is pretty much always pursuer and woman is hassled until bizarrely thinks he's the one.

So yes it's a huge part of gender role and feeds into so much from male female dynamics, attire, different roles etc.

That's where we part though I think.

Because it's all constructed and enforced across the board.

The constructions are based on things that in the end suit men way more than women in general.

Some men and some women find it all quite easy to get along with, feel comfy with this.

Of course loads don't.

This is all feminist stuff and has been for yonks.

If a person is homosexual then there are still roles/ stereotypes. I don't have deep knowledge at all. And of course where came from is a mix. Decades ago and probably around the world various signals were/ are adopted to subtly signal homosexuality.

In the end any norms for lesbians/ gay men stem from the sexuality. They are constructed just like for heterosexual people. There are variations to express aspects of yourself but it's all constructed.

It all flows from bio sex, and sexuality.

Bottom line is that it's all gone arse about face.

It's based in the stereotypes. The princess prince stuff.

Women fancy men. Women like dresses and girls nights in. Being attractive to men is very important. You wait for the Prince. He chooses you. You flirt and simper and like cake. Etc.

Men fancy women. Men are big and strong. Men attract women with things like money, being funny, being persistent. Looks are less important. Men are above frivolous things that women like. They are natural leaders and women tend to demurr (SP?) to them.

Etc etc.

They all come from constructed roles. At population level, all over the world and whatever the norms. They do not fit many people at all really. And the whole lot? Very rare.

And they stem from the thing that leads to it all. Sex and sexuality.

Putting the (varying) roles as the key rather than what it all stems from- sex and sexuality. Is back to front.

Sorry for essay!

Cross dressing has at least in UK has been a part of gay 'scene' for years. Not everyone likes it but drag etc is definitely a think. Not cross dressing for sexual reasons but still wearing 'women's' clothes.

Old school trans-sexuals were often gay men. Males who were gay = part of gay population.

That's why the T was included. For gay men, whether it was their thing or not. Plenty men in some kind of dresses etc.

And so it would have seemed almost a given that males wearing dresses etc were part of that group.

I think the inclusion of transexuals in peoples minds in relation to homosexuality is because a lot of male transexuals were understood to be gay men who were presenting as women. It was their homosexuality that was the common denominator. Drag might also have contributed to that perception, no one really thought gay men in drag had a female identity in the way a woman did. It was a performer identity, like Ziggy Stardust.

Men with AGP weren't nearly as visible and not all clinics would even allow them to transition. I wonder too if they weren't rarer at that time, given that it was expected they have full medical transition. They would be more likely to function as transvestites which was often kept private.

So it was the commonality of their sexuality that was the connection.

First line should say, is was because they were understood to be gay men.

Agree-

The men who sometimes/ often donned dresses for drag, were transsexual gay men... etc who were gay and it has been for a long time a thing here at least, part of gay culture.

Obviously in gay 'community' because they were gay. Given that men adopting aspects of appearance that are coded feminine IE female. Doing that has been considered evidence of homosexuality for yonks. Being Christ caught in a frock in years gone by often big consequences. And still all over the world.

The other part is back to... Bio sex and enforced sex role.

Heterosexual men in general are freaked out by the by the idea of male/male penetrative sex. In particular being penetrated. That tramples a massive part of gender role. Men do the penetrating. And see it as a dominant act. Women are penetrated. Dominated, they submit.

You can see this very clearly in multiple everyday things.

For het men the idea of a man being penetrated with another man's penis is an outrage. For the one doing the penetration it's not as bad. Any hole a goal etc. All that nasty stuff.. For other man he's seen as taking the female role. A man who does that is the antithesis of what it means to be a man in a fundamental way. Allowing himself to submit, to be dominated.

I some info about a country earlier and their law said caught sex, penetrator gets lashes I think it was. Other man gets prison and I think maybe death penalty.

And so a man dressed in women's clothes? Taken as a pointer that they enjoy the submissive role in sex. An affront.

^^

The above is all about the way men (some/many) think.

Not my views in any way.