Trans prisoners increased by a fifth in two years MoJ report

[flyingbuttress43]

The Daily Telegraph has seen an MoJ report showing 197 prisoners in England and Wales identified as trans this year, up 21% from 163 in 2019.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/24/transgender-prison-population-climbs-fifth-two-years-moj-figures/

This is in the Times too www.thetimes.co.uk/article/transgender-prison-population-rises-by-a-fifth-3c7w5mb2g

Sorry I can't make share tokens work on my laptop

I'm confused by this statistic. It's from a Times article linked to in The Times article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/da7876a4-92d6-11ea-b833-0d83599da676?shareToken=89b24830c045638a0b977d45b36cc6c8

The Ministry of Justice said: “Since 2010, out of the 124 sexual assaults that occurred in the female [prison] estate a total of seven were against females in custody perpetrated by transgender individuals.” It is not known what gender the attackers had been born

Who committed the other 117 assaults? Prison officers? Other female prisoners?

The other assaults might have been transgender prisoners against prison staff or prison visitors.

@ghislaine

The other assaults might have been transgender prisoners against prison staff or prison visitors.

I don't think that's very likely. Prison visitors are very unlikely to be in a situation where they are on their own with a prisoner.

Assaults on prison staff don't appear to be included in that figure.

www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/13082020-assaults-on-prison-staff-at-second-highest-in-a-decade/

This is the figure for the assaults on staff in 2020.

Assaults on prison officers in female prisons rose for the seventh consecutive year, reaching 616, including a rise in serious assaults

Women’s prisons had 34 transgender inmates in April 2019, 11 of whom identified as female. Prison Service statistics do not include those prisoners born male who have already legally changed sex.

So any number of those other 117 sex assaults could have been committed by other transgender prisoners who were counted as female in these sex assault stats, then.

What's most scary about prison statistics is that they literally have no way of knowing how many transgender prisoners are being counted as female here (and query how they can meet trans prisoners' needs if they're counting them as female for internal purposes) as they haven't even been recording this info - when someone comes in with a GRC, they get logged as female and that's that.

Not seen it on the board so far - has anyone brought up this story? It's causing outrage on Twitter.

www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-woman-accused-using-sex-22260053

"Teesside woman accused of exposing penis, using sex toy and masturbating in public"

Thanks for sharing, NotTerfNorCis, but I would start a separate thread on that too as it's also about the wider issue of reporting crimes in the media (and about the concept of female penises generally), and someone who might skim over prison threads for whatever reason might be interested in that separate from the prison angle (the headline in itself is shocking).

@
@flyingbuttress43

Might be because the world has less bigots and haters so people can be honest.

I fear you are suggesting another angle.

It might not just be one or the other

The answer is mens, then womens then trans and no. Binary prisons.

I am happy to pay for tax for a better world.

Might be because the world has less bigots and haters so people can be honest.

It is exceedingly unlikely that any government would be willing to fund new separate prisons for trans prisoners and also separate prisons for non-binary prisoners. In the meantime that leaves male bodied prisoners in women's prisons with all the risk and lack of consideration for women.

A solution is needed in the very much larger male prison estate, to house vulnerable male bodied prisoners of any type, including those who are trans or non-binary identified. For their safety and for the safety of women.

I wonder if by any chance Baroness Chakrabarti will have seen this given her stance last week at the House of Lords debate regarding an amendment to stop sex criminals who are trans gender male to female being put in women’s prisons?

“KimikosNightmare
I'm confused by this statistic. It's from a Times article linked to in The Times article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/da7876a4-92d6-11ea-b833-0d83599da676?shareToken=89b24830c045638a0b977d45b36cc6c8

“The Ministry of Justice said: “Since 2010, out of the 124 sexual assaults that occurred in the female [prison] estate a total of seven were against females in custody perpetrated by transgender individuals.” It is not known what gender the attackers had been born”

Who committed the other 117 assaults? Prison officers? Other female prisoners?

@KimikosNightmare I was wondering that too. Does that mean all those other sexual asssults were committed by women on women?

@AssassinatedBeauty

You implication is that trans people are sexual predators and it simply isn’t true.

Perverts will find a way in any system to abuse women.

But that’s the piont if you want séparation it involves spending wherever.

Does that mean all those other sexual asssults were committed by women on women?

As others have said, men with a GRC count as women, so any sexual assault carried out by such a man would be included.

However, I understand there are sexual assaults carried out by women on other women. Some of them might not be truly sexual however. I read somewhere that female prisoners sometimes smuggle things in their vagina, and on occasion, other prisoners violently retrieve them, and that can be counted in these statistics.

I will add, I’m not an expert. That’s something I read during a discussion on the same topic, either here or on Twitter, so I can’t vouch for its accuracy, but it did sound plausible.

A quick search brought up this, which seems to describe one such incident.

www.justice.gov/usao-edwa/pr/female-inmate-who-committed-sexual-assault-while-custody-drug-trafficking-and-firearm

[quote Cascascascas]@AssassinatedBeauty

You implication is that trans people are sexual predators and it simply isn’t true.

Perverts will find a way in any system to abuse women.

But that’s the piont if you want séparation it involves spending wherever.[/quote]
The point is that a not insignificant minority of MEN are sexual predators, and that by allowing self-ID by the back door - which is where we are - some of those men will be allowed to use that to their advantage and claim to be women, at which point under the “acceptance without exception” mantra we are all supposed to immediately accept them as trans.

You know, the point women have been making on here for years?

Exactly. Not ALL transwomen are sexual predators but some are. More transwomen than women are sexual predators as studies have shown that transwomen offend at the same level as men, not women. These are facts, not opinions.

@Cascascascas

You implication is that trans people are sexual predators and it simply isn’t true.

No, my implication is that a percentage of male bodied people are sexual predators, in addition to simply being male bodied. As they are male bodied they are very much more likely than women to be sexual predators.

Women should already have refuge from male bodied people in women's prisons. The onus is on the prison service to find a solution for male bodied trans people that doesn't involve placing them in the women's estate. As it should always have been.

@AssassinatedBeauty

Of course mens violence against women is not ok.

But too wrongs don’t make a right.
Because some people abuse a system that does not mean the system should be removed or distorted.

Hence my suggest if separate places which you effectively said was not worst it.

Versus going against trans people you should be positive and promote seperate places

Trans people are not a disease.
People Manila sexually predator men are the issue. If they dress as women to try and committ and crime and claim they are trans that’s disgraceful but it not trans people that are the issue.

@Cascascascas it is male bodied people who are the issue, however they identify. There are plenty of vulnerable men in the male prison estate who need to be managed to protect them. Trans prisoners are in that category, and should be housed in the male estate as any other vulnerable male prisoner would be.

I'm not against separate prisons. But the practicality of creating them is a real world issue and can't be waved away. The numbers of prisoners is still fairly small despite the recent increase. Building new prisons is not something many governments aim to do because it costs and doesn't play well for their public image We should be looking at the current male estate and finding ways to house vulnerable prisoners. Not just using the female estate without care for the women in it,

Just repeating these important statistics from the judicial review into trans prisoners last year:

Data collected across the prison estate in March/April 2019 recorded the following:
i) There were 163 transgender prisoners, of whom 81 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.

ii) 129 of those prisoners were allocated to the male estate, 34 to the female estate. Of the 129 in the male estate, 74 had been convicted of one or more sexual offences.

iii) In 2020, prisoners in the general population who were serving sentences for sexual offences constituted less than 20% of the male prison population and less than 5% of the female population.

That shows a prevalence of sexual offending by the known transgender prison population of over 50% compared to a prevalence of around 18% in male prisons generally and around 4% in female prisons generally.

Source: www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2021/1746.html

So at least in the prison population, men who identify as trans women are more than twice as likely as other men to have committed sexual offences; and more than 10 times more likely than women.

That's not a good look.

FPFW have tweeted about these figures today. With links to the full tables. They said that although the number of mtf prisoners has gone up, the number being transferred to women's prisons has gone down significantly. From MoJ prison stats.

The really interesting thing for me was that a statutory instrument was issued, effectively changing the GRA. It resulted from the prison judicial review. It's now legal for the prison service and others involved in offender management to ask if someone has a grc and share that info between them. So it's now known there are 23 grc holders in prison (though they haven't said what sex or what prison).

mobile.twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1464184457393487873

The links from the fpfw twitter thread are to:

The statutory instrument
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1020/made
(Yes it's crazy this wasn't legal before but there you go. Well done for all the hard work fpfw, the anon female prisoner who brought the suit, and everyone else)

The full figures
www.gov.uk/government/statistics/hm-prison-and-probation-service-offender-equalities-annual-report-2020-to-2021

Fpfw breakdown and explanation
fairplayforwomen.com/2021-transgender-prison-figures/

This is interesting. In 2019 there were...

11 victims among 129 transwomen in the male estate
7 female victims of sexual assault by transwomen in the female estate (of which there were 34)

It doesn't clarify whether one transwomen committed sexual assault against more than one victim, but the stats do seem to suggest that tranwomen may be more likely to commit sexual assault if housed in the female estates than be assaulted if housed in the male estate.

@Cascascascas
sexually predator men are the issue. If they dress as women to try and committ and crime and claim they are trans that’s disgraceful but it not trans people that are the issue
Stonewall definition of trans includes crossdressers (eg men dressed as women) www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/list-lgbtq-terms#trans

Stonewall also demands 'acceptance without exception' - the main UK trans rights organisation accepts these men as trans and demands that we accept them as women. According to Stonewall you are a bigot for questioning this.

Exactly. Not ALL transwomen are sexual predators but some are.

I think it's important also to keep in mind that not all convicted biologically male sexual predators in women's prisons are genuine transwomen either.

We're often talking about predatory males who've gone to such great lengths to abuse women already that they've risked getting caught to do so.

Since being a woman is regarded by the prisons service to be a subjective concept, there is no objective way to know if someone is lying about believing themselves to be female.

Therefore, the risk of being discovered as a non-trans fraudster is almost non-existent, whereas they have already taken a massive risk to satisfy their abusive urges to get caught and end up in prison in the first place.

If male -and already criminal - sexual predators have an effectively risk-free way of gaining access to captive women, why would they not take it?

Unless you want a diagnosis of dysphoria which is now considered transphobic there is no such thing as a 'genuine' transperson
If a person says they are trans that is it, they are. That is what acceptance without exception means. You cannot discard them because they have committed a crime