Trans prisoners increased by a fifth in two years MoJ report

[flyingbuttress43]

The Daily Telegraph has seen an MoJ report showing 197 prisoners in England and Wales identified as trans this year, up 21% from 163 in 2019.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/24/transgender-prison-population-climbs-fifth-two-years-moj-figures/

That is why diagnosis is needed for these situations and a history or a history at the very least

I think an evidence based perspective is needed.

Blanket statements suggesting that trans people are not committing these crimes is incorrect and very unhelpful.

Acknowledgement that there is no evidence that transitioned males commit sex crimes at a similar rate as all males is needed. Or, if there is, publish it so we can all read it.

This means, of course, not all males as like that but ‘some’ are. The continued attempt to make trans people into a sacred subset of males is appalling. I see it repeated on thread after thread.

The vast majority don’t commit sex crime. The vast majority of males don’t commit sex crimes. An even vaster majority of females commit sexual crime.

But let’s not forget that ‘some’ do. Trying to tell people they don’t is harmful.

@KimikosNightmare

I'm confused by this statistic. It's from a Times article linked to in The Times article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/da7876a4-92d6-11ea-b833-0d83599da676?shareToken=89b24830c045638a0b977d45b36cc6c8

The Ministry of Justice said: “Since 2010, out of the 124 sexual assaults that occurred in the female [prison] estate a total of seven were against females in custody perpetrated by transgender individuals.” It is not known what gender the attackers had been born

Who committed the other 117 assaults? Prison officers? Other female prisoners?

I assumed that stat was one prisoner assaulting another but thinking about it don't think seen explicitly said.

Women in prison do sexually assault other women.

When these/ similar stats came out.

On twitter in some areas the response was that-

Female inmates do sexually assault so what's the difference

The assaults carried out by female prisoners was way more than my trans prisoners.

Just FYI.

Yes of course plenty points that dispute this but of course not of interest.

[quote Cascascascas]@AssassinatedBeauty

You implication is that trans people are sexual predators and it simply isn’t true.

Perverts will find a way in any system to abuse women.

But that’s the piont if you want séparation it involves spending wherever.[/quote]
A massively disproportionate % of trans women in female estate are in prison for sex offences though.

Did you not know that? Or did you not stop to think for a sec and realise that even if you didn't know. It was definitely possible that there could be some convicted of sex offences? And then check or word your post differently?

Or do you suscribe to the view held by enough people that I've run across it a few times. That trans people in prison are usually there because of police stitching them up due to trans status?

Of course plenty of time the gender identity is discovered in prison/ or that's when they decide to come out. Prison seems to be a real trigger for trans males to find their true selves.

The assertion from many that sexual assaults on prison just aren't going to be female/ female is as biased an assumption as that tw are never sex offenders btw. Not helpful.

In the end all this should not be an issue because should never have happened.

The history is interesting. TW have been in women's prisons since 80s at least..predating loads of the current activism by decades. And the gra 2004.

I have ideas about how this came about. Why it wasn't generally known, noticed when policies etc needed to be written. Why no consultations. Why the prison service have behaved the way they have. If I'm right it explains how we got to the current situation with prisons.

Anyone interested happy to post them!

So we are in this position. And having to fight to try and get anything done.

Male and female separate prisons, are surely an obvious basic. I'm sure it's going to be in global minimum human rights prison standards somewhere. Separating sexes in certain situations is a common basic across loads of things.

Obvious reasons include:

Physical advantage male over female
Scale of VAWG including sexual violence
Two above are linked of course. Mixed prisons everyone knows would be living nightmare for women
Possibility of pregnancy
Etc etc

Why are there male and female prisons? Because of bodies.
And the risk one group present to the other.

I can't see a reasonable argument that this isn't why separate.

So that's out the window and it's just obviously bad for female inmates as puts them at risk. Anyone on the street would he vanishingly unlikely to say otherwise.

And now this stats those stats evidence examples. It's lies, demonisation etc.

All the warnings from those in prison service about exploitating gender policies to get in with women. Including for predatory reasons.

This headline. Up by a fifth in two years I think it was.

Older stat, TW in prison totally disproportionate % sex offenders.

Finding true self at some point during legal process or once in prison strangely common.

It points one way. How can it not?

But we're told there's no problem.. bigot.

It's just outrageous really. How the fuck have we got here. (Rhetorical!).

@NotTerfNorCis

Not seen it on the board so far - has anyone brought up this story? It's causing outrage on Twitter.

www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-woman-accused-using-sex-22260053

"Teesside woman accused of exposing penis, using sex toy and masturbating in public"

They lost me at: "exposing her penis"

I work in a school.

To work in a school, you have to pass a DBS check. It's not a perfect system but it definitely makes children much safer.

Let's say one day they decide to remove the DBS requirement and let people make a self-declaration instead. Schools would immediately become less safe for children.

BUT that's not because all the
teachers would become paedophiles; it's because all the paedophiles would become teachers.

Its exactly the same with self-ID. Opposing self-ID doesn't mean you think all trans people are perverts, just that you know the perverts will identify as trans if it gets them access to women.

@sharksarecool

I work in a school.

To work in a school, you have to pass a DBS check. It's not a perfect system but it definitely makes children much safer.

Let's say one day they decide to remove the DBS requirement and let people make a self-declaration instead. Schools would immediately become less safe for children.

BUT that's not because all the
teachers would become paedophiles; it's because all the paedophiles would become teachers.

Its exactly the same with self-ID. Opposing self-ID doesn't mean you think all trans people are perverts, just that you know the perverts will identify as trans if it gets them access to women.

Perfectly explained 👍

[quote Cascascascas]@AssassinatedBeauty

You implication is that trans people are sexual predators and it simply isn’t true.

Perverts will find a way in any system to abuse women.

But that’s the piont if you want séparation it involves spending wherever.[/quote]
No, the implication is that sexual predators will pretend to be transwomen in order to be placed in women’s prisons.
There are 7 category A prisons, where male murderers and rapists may well be sent. Women’s prisons are divided on different lines, it is in the interests of a man sentenced a long time for rape or murder to then decide he’s really trans in the hope of being sent to a (much less restrictive) women’s prison - and the bonus is that he gets easy access to the type of person he may well prefer as his next victim - ie females he can rape! And we all fall for it! The general idea that all transwomen in prisons are delicate, effeminate people who once identified as gay, who as a TW may still be attracted to men and therefore need protecting from those horrible nasty big men in prisons is absolutely not the reality.
Any male, no matter how he chooses to identify, is still male. It’s not the job of females in prison to protect those TWs who are vulnerable, it’s the job of the prison service to provide a safe place for them in the male prison estate.

Opposing self-ID doesn't mean you think all trans people are perverts, just that you know the perverts will identify as trans if it gets them access to women.

Exactly. How can anyone not see this?

The inability to distinguish between men genuinely wishing to be/believing themselves to be women, and men who pretend to believe that in order to access sex segregated spaces where women and girls are nude/partially nude/vulnerable/sleeping is not just a problem for prisons of course. Though those women are particularly unable to self exclude from the now mixed sex environment.

It is an issue in changing rooms, refuges, hostels, rape counseling services, girlguide camps, receiving intimate care or healthcare etc.

Indeed all the places where we would expect single sex exemptions to the equality act to be used.

Women have no idea if the male bodied person in the "single sex" space is predatory or not. There's no "not a predator" test we can rely on. That's why these spaces are segregated by sex and not by self IDing into "predators" and "non predators". We understand that means perfectly nice men and transwomen are excluded and that's always been the case. It means we can have privacy and dignity as well as safety.

Because they don't want to. Because it would mean things they don't want.

'Perverts will find a way in any system to abuse women.'

This argument is so grotesque.

It says. Males will sexually attack women and girls (and boys) if they want to. This is inevitable. Women and children can't stop them. It's going to happen whatever anyone does.

Therefore removing various rules/ policies. And eroding looking standing strongly enforced social norms. That exist to minimise / prevent that happening. Is no problem because it's going to happen anyway.

Anyone who says otherwise is a disingenuous bigot.

If that's true then why is eg flashing even illegal? It has always happened, it's never going to go away. It's a fact of life. Why bother with a law to point out its bad? Especially given that it's doubtful if it reduces it. (And the law is essentially not enforced anyway).

If it was legal, what you think would happen?

Incidentally with WiSpa a new popular argument emerged. With a few variations. They go:

1. Penis is just skin. Nothing inherently scary about it! Too much prudishness/ hysteria around a bit of skin.
2. Some women have penises get over it!
3. No one should be looking at anyone elses genitals anyway, if they do they're perves!
4. Exposure laws prevent males identifying as women living full lives. It causes worry about going to anything where communal undressing/ nudity is involved.

Think others but can't remember.

This is a PROBLEM. A massive one. Given that there idea, which has been implemented so widely in some countries and in law in some.

Is that gender ID must be respected at all times. It is upsetting and often hateful to question in any way. There is no specific way anyone should look, for women in fact this is long term feminist point. Policing bodies is appalling. Esp women's bodies. Another feminist point.

If anyone sees someone they think does not belong they must accept the person knows best where they should be. Additionally trans people are so oppressed that even thinking they don't belong is appalling.

Bottom line. Dicks (it's not just dicks that's shorthand for male body features the whole lot) in women's stuff even if communal stripping off, showering. Places where women/girls are more vulnerable, places which are very popular when it comes to male fetishists, places where we want privacy for good reasons.

ANY male who states that they are woman/ girl, or an identity that means that's where they feel comfortable, or that's where they feel comfortable on that day of the week. Have a RIGHT to be there. In fact it's outrageous not to assume they know best and that's that.

Fuck even if you could tell. A male still has no business in female single sex things.

And no. The assertion that were always internal gender never sex is just nonsense.

The fact that before all this. In certain situations when transsexual was the term. And the population number was tiny. Women tended to turn a blind eye. But still could tell anyone who made them uncomfy to get out. And I'm sure some did get shit anyway from women sometimes. But generally it was pretend not to notice, keep an eye on them.

The gender push has totally fucked things up for the trans people back then. And they DO NOT CARE AT ALL.

@sharksarecool

I work in a school.

To work in a school, you have to pass a DBS check. It's not a perfect system but it definitely makes children much safer.

Let's say one day they decide to remove the DBS requirement and let people make a self-declaration instead. Schools would immediately become less safe for children.

BUT that's not because all the
teachers would become paedophiles; it's because all the paedophiles would become teachers.

Its exactly the same with self-ID. Opposing self-ID doesn't mean you think all trans people are perverts, just that you know the perverts will identify as trans if it gets them access to women.

This is great.

We need to go back to facts - sex, and not the new ideology - gender. Male prisons for XY and female prisons for XX.

Special wings for those who need separation for additional needs.

In the meantime women inmates need to sue when their sex-based rights are violated as they are starting to do in Canada.

In the meantime women inmates need to sue when their sex-based rights are violated as they are starting to do in Canada.

Absolutely agree with the rest of your post, but it's also important to remember that we're talking about some of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged women in our society.

The women who are most affected by this often don't have the means or resources to take legal action, and I think it's unrealistic to expect that they are going to be able to get themselves out of this mess without a great deal of help from people in less precarious positions on the outside.

@LonginesPrime I'm wondering if there is strength in numbers, they collectively sue based on previous successful cases. I don't know much about law, but think once one case is agreed others can use that in their cases.

If a trickle can build to a wave, hopefully it could force change to keep men out of women's prisons?

There is a women's group, think WOLF, who I thought may be organising to support women in areas like this, but just read about them recently.

There is a women's group, think WOLF, who I thought may be organising to support women in areas like this

They recently filed a lawsuit against prisons in California about their policy of placing males in women's prisons.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4412179-California-suied-by-WOLF-over-transgender-prison-laws

WOLF is suing California's Corrections Board on behalf of some sexually abused female prisoners. However, they are fighting against the odds as the liberal left has targeted them.The ACLU, left wing lawyers who are supposed to help the vulnerable, have already tried to stop them accessing the numbers of male prisoners in Californian female prisons. Obviously abused women aren't vulnerable enough for the ACLU.

@Enough4me, yes that would be good.

I think Keep Prisons Single Sex would be the UK equivalent and I know they're doing amazing work on the campaigning front.

I should imagine they're best-placed to know what's happening on the ground in UK prisons, so it's worth checking them out.

My concern would be that prisoners wouldn't know that there's anything that could be done as they've likely all been gaslit like the rest of us into feeling guilty for wanting 'transphobic' sex-based protections.

Most of us just going about our lives with unlimited access to the media took a while of gaslighting and thinking we were simply being inclusive before we realised what was happening. So it concerns me that, for people whose liberty has already been removed and is being completely controlled by the prisons service who believes wholeheartedly that TWAW, these women likely have very little access to accurate or balanced information.

Obviously, I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

Obviously abused women aren't vulnerable enough for the ACLU.

It seems possible that protecting rapists is the ACLU's sole consistent principle.

twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1462824689059958790

The ACLU also (currently) state that possession of "child porn" should not be illegal.

@sharksarecool

I work in a school.

To work in a school, you have to pass a DBS check. It's not a perfect system but it definitely makes children much safer.

Let's say one day they decide to remove the DBS requirement and let people make a self-declaration instead. Schools would immediately become less safe for children.

BUT that's not because all the
teachers would become paedophiles; it's because all the paedophiles would become teachers.

Its exactly the same with self-ID. Opposing self-ID doesn't mean you think all trans people are perverts, just that you know the perverts will identify as trans if it gets them access to women.

Best analogy for self ID I've seen anywhere, would you mind if I copied it for future use/reference sharksarecool?