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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Erin Pizzey and the founding of dv shelters in the UK

115 replies

ArabellaScott · 23/11/2021 21:25

Interesting BBC article on Erin Pizzey.

It's astonishing to think how young the movement is. Pizzey founded what is now Refuge, the first dv shelter, but later denounced feminism and became an advocate for men's rights. She apparently has no ties with the organisation now.

Some upsetting descriptions in the article.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-59064064?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

OP posts:
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 13:54

Don't get me started oon Buffy or the Stephanie Meyers stuff, Catniss Everboodydean etc that came out of it. Strong women? Only if viewed that way through the male gaze!

I would have thought Pizzey's proximity to many abused and abusive women over the years would have led her to a less simplistic conclusion that women are just as abusive as men

That would be my conclusion but I know a few women who felt the abuse from their mothers to be a greater betrayal than that of their fathers. Maybe it is seated in there, somewhere. It is something that needs to be discussed. How else to find a way to 'fix' it?

MonsignorMirth · 24/11/2021 13:55

I really recommend Difficult Women, as per previous posters.

Thelnebriati · 24/11/2021 13:55

You misunderstood my post. Please just stop it and let the discussion move forwards.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 13:56

Was I "flaming"? I disagreed with Thelnebriati? That's "flaming"

My apologies. Your curt sentence, a rather abrupt dismissal, did feel less discursive than it might have been.

Thelnebriati · 24/11/2021 13:57

I know a few women who felt the abuse from their mothers to be a greater betrayal than that of their fathers.

Thats a common reaction, isnt it? I think we expect higher standards of behaviour and solidarity from other women, especially when it comes to motherhood vs fatherhood.

Floisme · 24/11/2021 13:58

Right now I'm less concerned about what Pizzey may or may not have said or thought as I am with the way her contribution to the movement appears to have been brushed under the carpet. If that's what happened then it stinks.

I'll read 'Difficult Women' - thanks.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 14:00

Yes. I know I had to work through it and for quite a while had to work hard to see my mother's behaviour for what it really was/is.

There may have been a decade or so when I too would have thought that women can be just as abusive as men. Not giving the wider context a second thought. It takes a while to think passed the personal. Some people never quite manage it, in my experience.

CharlieParley · 24/11/2021 14:02

I think that Erin Pizzey's argument back then, whatever she may believe or do today, is one example of a valid criticism of how radical feminism approaches domestic violence. And if you look closely at the mess we're in today, it's inescapable that radical feminism has contributed to getting us here.

It was in many ways a blunt instrument, many of its ideas unsuited to being implemented, but vital in highlighting serious issues women were facing. It was black and white in its approach to a number of issues, including domestic violence, while Erin Pizzey was looking at the many shades of grey inbetween.

Right now, I think we cannot afford to go all radfem, we have to be much more nuanced and careful. For whatever reason, second wavers didn't spend much time on NAMALT and yet we do. In my view they used class-based analysis in a different way from us - we use it for a particular purpose (in safeguarding or to address the effects of historic discrimination), and from my reading second wave feminists applied the technique in a much more general way.

I do wonder if we're going to end up with a more pragmatic, less dogmatic feminism because otherwise we cannot effectively address the doctrine of gender identity and its political implications for the rights of women and girls. We have to focus on the practical consequences of the doctrine, and we need evidence to counter a lot of the claims coming from the other side. It's not enough for us to simply assert something, we need to be able to show it's true. I don't believe that that is a bad thing for feminism as a whole.

KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 14:04

@Thelnebriati

You misunderstood my post. Please just stop it and let the discussion move forwards.
Your responses on here make it quite clear to me why Pizzey got fed up.

That would be my conclusion but I know a few women who felt the abuse from their mothers to be a greater betrayal than that of their fathers

If you (general you) are going to put mothers and motherhood up on a pedestal, which a current thread is doing, the counter to that is abuse by a mother is worse.

KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 14:06

@Floisme

Right now I'm less concerned about what Pizzey may or may not have said or thought as I am with the way her contribution to the movement appears to have been brushed under the carpet. If that's what happened then it stinks.

I'll read 'Difficult Women' - thanks.

It's disgraceful.
Abhannmor · 24/11/2021 14:06

I remember her well. It was just Chiswick Women's Aid at first. Nobody took domestic violence too seriously before Erin Pizzey. Her husband was Jack Pizzey the TV journalist. But she later married an American guy. Did she end up living over there ?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 14:09

I know that is what we are doing right here and right now.

I spend a few hours per week looking at funding implications of gender ideology. The practicality of keeping funding coming in. It is making a very real negtaive impact for many female service organisations

That leads to my being 'in the loop' with many meetings and debates of an organisation I don't work directly for, understanding what drives them and their decisions. And it has become much more pragmatic. They need cash, support right now. It is up to others to fight the politics of it.

Evidence based feminism feels like the work I am involved in.

Shit, I am tapping 60. Could I not just carry on shouting Women Won't Wheesht?

ArabellaScott · 24/11/2021 14:10

I do wonder if we're going to end up with a more pragmatic, less dogmatic feminism because otherwise we cannot effectively address the doctrine of gender identity and its political implications for the rights of women and girls. We have to focus on the practical consequences of the doctrine, and we need evidence to counter a lot of the claims coming from the other side. It's not enough for us to simply assert something, we need to be able to show it's true. I don't believe that that is a bad thing for feminism as a whole.

Yes, I agree. It's good to remember this is a social movement made up of human beings who often Smile disagree. It's not a religious movement and doesn't have infallible people or gospels.

OP posts:
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 14:12

That would be my conclusion but I know a few women who felt the abuse from their mothers to be a greater betrayal than that of their fathers That was my comment, lnebriati was quoting me

And If you (general you) are going to put mothers and motherhood up on a pedestal, which a current thread is doing, the counter to that is abuse by a mother is worse. was the point both of us were making (if I have understood that correctly)

You do seem to have misunderstood.

Shall we start again? Find common ground?

KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 14:17

Erin Pizzey is someone who was battered by her mother. I can understand her feelings to an extent. My own mother was sometimes violent, always emotionally abusive and a frightening woman. However, my mum was a product of her own lack of autonomy. She had no say in anything that happened in her life, and coped in her own way with the shit life threw at her

But your mother, as an adult, had every say in how she personally treated you as a child. It's bullying isn't it? It might, just, be understandable that she would pick on someone smaller, but it's not excusable.

I am pretty sure (in my gut, I have no research) that the frustrations of women with no control over the lives and no legal recourse are a major factor in female violence

And again, everyone has a choice not to be violent.

Packingsoapandwater · 24/11/2021 14:19

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I know that is what we are doing right here and right now.

I spend a few hours per week looking at funding implications of gender ideology. The practicality of keeping funding coming in. It is making a very real negtaive impact for many female service organisations

That leads to my being 'in the loop' with many meetings and debates of an organisation I don't work directly for, understanding what drives them and their decisions. And it has become much more pragmatic. They need cash, support right now. It is up to others to fight the politics of it.

Evidence based feminism feels like the work I am involved in.

Shit, I am tapping 60. Could I not just carry on shouting Women Won't Wheesht?

Who, or what, do you believe is the cause of these changes in funding parameters?

Someone or something must be introducing this gender ideology into funding conditions.

JustButtingIn · 24/11/2021 14:20

Forgive me for butting in here but this is a moment in history I remember and tell my kids and their generation about.
My mum told us how (after we all saw Erin Pizzey's work reported on) she was for the first time able to say to a woman in her community that this lady didn't have to put up with her husband hitting her.

It's so sad to think that prior there was just a sort of group disgust but no practical recourse if as usual there were no parents able to take the women and children in.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 14:21

Oh! That would be a no then!

@KimikosNightmare it's not as black and white as that. People are fallible, led by their own fears etc. Males and females alike are, in part, a product of their environment.

Seeking to understand that isn't excusing it. It is, however, one step towards understanding it, to being able to counter it.

viques · 24/11/2021 14:23

I am old enough to remember the documentary being aired. If I recall it was called “Scream quietly or the neighbours will hear” . I also remember that it was shown on Dutch tv and the tv station switchboard went crazy with the calls. All saying, “why are you showing UK women being beaten, there are Dutchwomen in the same situation.” ErinPizzey unlocked the proverbial can of worms, dv was the big secret every country ignored.

Thelnebriati · 24/11/2021 14:23

If women left, the police used to find them and take them back to their abuser; and that also went for women who removed children who were being abused by the father.
Its easy to apply todays standards to the past along with todays expectations; but very unfair on the women who were in an impossible situation. Trying to understand what it was like for them is not excusing their behaviour.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 14:23

Who, or what, do you believe is the cause of these changes in funding parameters? Ooh! That would be lobbying frome Stonewall and all the Stonewall Champions. The Lottery included

Someone or something must be introducing this gender ideology into funding conditions. Lots and lots of well meaning 'woke' individuals and organisations.

It takes hours to check for changes in funding parameters. It has taken months to learn a new funding lexicon. Identifying a need and how we can meet it is no longer good enough. We now have to meet needs in the right manner! It is infuriating.

KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 14:25

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Oh! That would be a no then!

@KimikosNightmare it's not as black and white as that. People are fallible, led by their own fears etc. Males and females alike are, in part, a product of their environment.

Seeking to understand that isn't excusing it. It is, however, one step towards understanding it, to being able to counter it.

I have no idea what post you are responding to.
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 14:29

Yes. My aunt was returned to her registered keeper with a broken arm and missing teeth. She said nothing. At least once the policeman returning her had her toddler, complete with burn marks on his back, in his arms.

My cousin escaped when he was 16.

My aunt is still with her husband, both now in their 70s. Locked in mutual aggression, both incapable of changing.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 14:30

I have no idea what post you are responding to. The whole of your previous post! The one about people always having choice, agency!

Thelnebriati · 24/11/2021 14:30

Women from that time couldn't conceive that coercive control would ever be a crime.