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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Erin Pizzey and the founding of dv shelters in the UK

115 replies

ArabellaScott · 23/11/2021 21:25

Interesting BBC article on Erin Pizzey.

It's astonishing to think how young the movement is. Pizzey founded what is now Refuge, the first dv shelter, but later denounced feminism and became an advocate for men's rights. She apparently has no ties with the organisation now.

Some upsetting descriptions in the article.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-59064064?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

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GoodieMoomin · 23/11/2021 21:47

If I remember rightly there's an interesting bit about her in Difficult Women by Helen Lewis

www.waterstones.com/book/difficult-women/helen-lewis/9781784709730

ArabellaScott · 23/11/2021 22:33

Oh, fab, thanks Goodie. Sounds from that article like she definitely qualifies.

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GoodieMoomin · 23/11/2021 23:04

Oh yes, she's a character, alright! She did some amazing work (sadly being undone now) and it's a shame how things panned out in terms of her legacy and reputation. I had never heard of her until last year.

TraceyLacey · 23/11/2021 23:06

I can't get my head around her turnaround. Doesn't make any sense to me.

ArabellaScott · 23/11/2021 23:21

No, and it doesn't sound like a view that is shared by many who work in that field.

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KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 01:27

@GoodieMoomin

Oh yes, she's a character, alright! She did some amazing work (sadly being undone now) and it's a shame how things panned out in terms of her legacy and reputation. I had never heard of her until last year.
I think it's pretty poor of Refuge to airbrush her out of, and re-write, history.

Refuge opened the world’s first safe house for women and children escaping domestic violence in Chiswick, West London, in 1971

www.refuge.org.uk/our-story/our-history/

Erin Pizzey was so well-known in the 70s. This going to sound odd, but it occurred to me on the thread discussing Mandy Smith how remarkable it was that Mandy Smith was so widely known of in the days of 3 television channels, no 24 hour news, no celebrity gossip and no Internet.

Erin Pizzey was the same. I was 13 in 1972 and my recollection is that Erin Pizzey was popping up everywhere in the early and mid 70s.

CheeseMmmm · 24/11/2021 01:56

I read that when it came out, really really interesting.

Agree that her determination to help women was inspirational and what she managed to get done incredible.

No of course she's massively important and what she did respected and applauded irrespective of opinions on how her views changed.

The photos of injuries are horrific.

The photos of the women and children together are really moving.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 11:34

She was a well known voice and face in the 70s. Great, tireless campaigner.

I'd imagine her childhood abuse at the hands of her mother has given her a different take on who abusers actually are. She was always vocal about that too.

And her book wasn't wrong In her book Prone to Violence she argues that a significant proportion of domestic violence happens because both partners are "addicted" to the adrenalin high connected with fear and being feared. that is one of the myriad reasons women stay in abusive relationships - hard as it is to say that out loud. I see it in some of the female clients we have - clinging to what they know because of both fear and an emotional fulfilment. Until something happens to change that balance.

It's hard to read her being anti feminist, but I do understand it, her perspective has a lot going for it, many women will buy into it. That's always been the danger in striving for equality.

ArabellaScott · 24/11/2021 11:53

It would be great to find out more about the history of the women behind these movements. Maybe a series of articles on the BBC?

One of the things about libfeminism to me seems to be that it's a bit bland and faceless. Maybe part of the 'we're all feminists now' idea - but it maybe means that we miss the more human, messy, sometimes contradictory and even difficult stories from history.

a significant proportion of domestic violence happens because both partners are "addicted" to the adrenalin high connected with fear and being feared.

I can see that. I think that's understandable if one looks at the broader context of how a woman has got into that situation. Coercion and grooming can get someone hooked on very unhealthy power dynamics, yes. One can end up seeking tiny victories from within a much larger and more hopeless situation. I don't know if that makes sense ... sort of carving your name on the prison wall, trying to exercise a tiny measure of power can look like a destructive action.

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HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 12:03

Which leads me to remember the day I abandoned feminism.

At 17 I was at Greenham, dipping my teen toes into activism
Mid 20s I was celebrating Dianne Abbot, a black woman MP? Who would have thought that possible? And Equal Pay actually worked!

And then the mid 90s happened and sudenly Girl Power was everywhere. Loud women, Ladettes. And all dressed up to the nines, being as attractive, pretty and fucking pink as possible.

So it was the first time I saw the Spice Girls and the attendant woop de woo about Girl Power. yep, the Spice Girls turned me off feminism!

I spent another 20 years then just focussing on local, small politics - food banks, local refuges, health initiatives, etc until TWAW impinged upon my consciousness... and here I still am!

bibliomania · 24/11/2021 12:38

I admire what she did to kickstart the refuge movement - the hands-on practical support to help women get out of a bad situation.

And her book wasn't wrong In her book Prone to Violence she argues that a significant proportion of domestic violence happens because both partners are "addicted" to the adrenalin high connected with fear and being feared. that is one of the myriad reasons women stay in abusive relationships - hard as it is to say that out loud. I see it in some of the female clients we have - clinging to what they know because of both fear and an emotional fulfilment. Until something happens to change that balance.

I also read her book. As someone who did experience DV and did go to a refuge, I didn't identify with this at all and felt ashamed and uncomfortable that others might think that.

At the same time, I recognise that women can be in that situation for all sorts of reasons, so who am I to say it never applies.

Floisme · 24/11/2021 12:43

I'm a bit shocked that people haven't heard of her. She was hugely well known in the 70s.

I don't know what led to the fallout, although I believe she features in the Red Pill documentary and talks about it there. Regardless of what happened, I think she deserves recognition for what she achieved for women. And if there's been an attempt to write her out of history then I'm not comfortable with that at all.

KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 13:00

My understanding is Erin Pizzey was shocked at how violent some of the women themselves were.

I think there is an interesting discussion to be had about how violence begets violence in the context of intergenerational violence and the effect on children growing up in a home where violence is commonplace. My understanding is that that is a conversation Pizzey wanted to have but it wasn't encouraged.

I think some posters on here have a very rosy- tinted view of mothers and motherhood. It's been a very long time since I've seen a mother (and it always was a mother) slapping or hitting a child in public for "bad behaviour". Unfortunately the same isn't true for seeing a mother berating, shouting or belittling a child for "bad behaviour"

At its absolute worst you get cases like poor Baby P. It was clear his mother was violent and his grandmother was violent towards Peter's mother. Intergenerational violence affecting the whole family.

My understanding is Erin Pizzey eventually got fed up with the idea that violent men are born that way but violent women are the victims of their circumstances and aren't to be blamed for their behaviour. That's a simplistic summary but I think that is where she was coming from.

Thelnebriati · 24/11/2021 13:16

It is a simplistic summary; the situation at that time was that women had no recourse to the law, no right to leave an abuser, there was no benefits safety net, and that working class women had no education past the age of 14.
The situation women grew up, their lack of freedom, of resources and choices created their mind set.

Erin was comparing two things that were not alike and saying they were the same. A lot had to change for women, before you could ask women to change.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 13:18

Erin was comparing two things that were not alike and saying they were the same. A lot had to change for women, before you could ask women to change.

Yep. That's were I feel her logic fails.

Not her opinions on the reality of female abusers - she was raised by one, she has that perspective and works from it.

AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 24/11/2021 13:21

I have great respect for Ms Pizzey. The article was fabulous. It raised some points about violence that no one dares say out loud. To understand DV, it's necessary to take a wide look at all of the factors and not always just see woman as helpless victims.

That last sentence will get me flamed, I know. But it needs to be said.

Baby P is a good example of what I mean.

And children who grow up in households where domestic violence is a common occurrence will see it as normal.

KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 13:23

@Thelnebriati

It is a simplistic summary; the situation at that time was that women had no recourse to the law, no right to leave an abuser, there was no benefits safety net, and that working class women had no education past the age of 14. The situation women grew up, their lack of freedom, of resources and choices created their mind set.

Erin was comparing two things that were not alike and saying they were the same. A lot had to change for women, before you could ask women to change.

I don't think anything needed to change to ask women to stop hitting their children or taking the violence inflicted on them out on their children.

School leaving age was raised to 15 in 1944.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 13:23

No flaming here.

I think she raises some very interesting points that need not to be brushed under a carpet - indeed it would be dangerous to do so.

As with many who campaign she isn't trying to be 'reasonable' or globally encompassing. She never was!

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 13:25

I don't think anything needed to change to ask women to stop hitting their children or taking the violence inflicted on them out on their children.

I don't think that's what @Thelnebriati meant. You are conflating 2 issues. Which I think is, in part, what some of the article, and Erin Pizzey, struggles with too!

KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 13:33

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I don't think anything needed to change to ask women to stop hitting their children or taking the violence inflicted on them out on their children.

I don't think that's what @Thelnebriati meant. You are conflating 2 issues. Which I think is, in part, what some of the article, and Erin Pizzey, struggles with too!

The issue is the refusal to consider what generated violence.
ArabellaScott · 24/11/2021 13:38

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

No flaming here.

I think she raises some very interesting points that need not to be brushed under a carpet - indeed it would be dangerous to do so.

As with many who campaign she isn't trying to be 'reasonable' or globally encompassing. She never was!

Yes, fgs, I hope that we can get beyond 'flaming'! These discussions need to be had.
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HoardingSamphireSaurus · 24/11/2021 13:41

The issue is the refusal to consider what generated violence.

And there are multiple reasons for that and any other aspect of this.

It is possible to focus on different parts of such a complex iue. You have focussed on one and are taking umbrage because someone else has focussed on a different aspect. Both of you have a point, neither is wrong. Just differently focussed.

As @ArabellaScott said, stop 'flaming' and allow the discussion to be had!

Packingsoapandwater · 24/11/2021 13:46

I understood the controversy as that Erin Pizzey said DV victims fell into two camps.

The first camp consisted of victims who had been badly abused, came to the refuge, used the time to get things sorted, and then never went back to their abusive partners.

The second, however, were the victims who perpetuated the cycle and were locked in co-dependency dance of violence with their partners. It was a way of being for them, almost a culture.

These victims were as verbally, physically and psychologically aggressive as their partners, but as their partners were often male with greater physical strength, when the domestic situation became very inflamed, these victims suffered a greater level of physical harm.

When Pizzey set up her shelters, she expected victims to be of the first camp. She expected to be providing a way for victims to escape their abusers and begin new lives. She did not reckon on, or possibly even conceived of, the second camp. I suspect her lack of knowledge of the intricacies within English working class strata did not help.

Now, I understood what she was talking about, because I grew up in a former industrial town and everyone knew those kinds of "camp two" families. My grandmother would refer to the wives in them as "mill-molls", which was a kind of shorthand for very aggressive women who were vicious to everyone not in their circle and who were known for "playing hell". She would talk about taking steps to avoid their mothers when she was working on the factory floor back in the late '30s, so this gives you an idea of how long this phenomenon has existed.

Now I look at those families and see them as the consequence of the brutalisation of a certain strata of the English working class by industrialisation and slum poverty, but when I was young, they were the families where you steered clear of their kids because they were so aggressive and you didn't want to set them off.

But, you see, because so much of the world of liberalism and feminism takes a middle class consciousness as a base, it's very difficult to talk about this kind of thing and what it means for policy and social problems. The middle class left just come over all indignant and start muttering about how shameful it is to split people into the "deserving and undeserving poor", like any of them have the faintest clue about that world.

And I know, by writing this, I'm probably going to piss someone on this board off. So I am going to write this disclaimer, even though I shouldn't need to: "I believe with my whole heart that no-one should ever be abused physically, emotionally, financially, or psychologically."

TedImgoingmad · 24/11/2021 13:48

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Which leads me to remember the day I abandoned feminism.

At 17 I was at Greenham, dipping my teen toes into activism
Mid 20s I was celebrating Dianne Abbot, a black woman MP? Who would have thought that possible? And Equal Pay actually worked!

And then the mid 90s happened and sudenly Girl Power was everywhere. Loud women, Ladettes. And all dressed up to the nines, being as attractive, pretty and fucking pink as possible.

So it was the first time I saw the Spice Girls and the attendant woop de woo about Girl Power. yep, the Spice Girls turned me off feminism!

I spent another 20 years then just focussing on local, small politics - food banks, local refuges, health initiatives, etc until TWAW impinged upon my consciousness... and here I still am!

I've started then deleted a hundred threads about how I think the 1990s culture of ladettes etc destroyed the women's movement. Also, many of the so called strong female cultural icons of the time - Scully, Buffy etc. - were nothing more than support humans, and have bent the notion of "strong female" to mean, "supporting delusional males". I totally agree with you about leaving "feminism" behind in the 90s.

Erin Pizzey is someone who was battered by her mother. I can understand her feelings to an extent. My own mother was sometimes violent, always emotionally abusive and a frightening woman. However, my mum was a product of her own lack of autonomy. She had no say in anything that happened in her life, and coped in her own way with the shit life threw at her. My father got away with being the better parent (best of a bad lot) simply by dint of his relative autonomy. I used to think my mother was evil. Now I think she was just a very sad, sad woman whose life and great potential (she was very clever, very creative) was lost to her. I would have thought Pizzey's proximity to many abused and abusive women over the years would have led her to a less simplistic conclusion that women are just as abusive as men. There's a legal and societal framework that contributes towards human behaviour, and I am pretty sure (in my gut, I have no research) that the frustrations of women with no control over the lives and no legal recourse are a major factor in female violence.

KimikosNightmare · 24/11/2021 13:52

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

The issue is the refusal to consider what generated violence.

And there are multiple reasons for that and any other aspect of this.

It is possible to focus on different parts of such a complex iue. You have focussed on one and are taking umbrage because someone else has focussed on a different aspect. Both of you have a point, neither is wrong. Just differently focussed.

As @ArabellaScott said, stop 'flaming' and allow the discussion to be had!

Was I "flaming"? I disagreed with Thelnebriati? That's "flaming"