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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Harrop MPTS thread 2

999 replies

Personwithrage · 18/11/2021 11:20

Starting the new thread

OP posts:
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23
nauticant · 19/11/2021 18:23

I'm cross too TurquoiseBaubles. Although I don't allow myself my Friday night wine till after 8pm.

TurquoiseBaubles · 19/11/2021 18:27

I don't usually.

But the bottle was open and just sitting there and I was following up on some of the Irish stuff earlier on and I've just had enough.

I'm an old woman. When I got married I had to get condoms on prescription and I got my husband's social insurance number with a W (for wife) on the end - in Ireland. I thought we were past all that and now I'm seeing the effect all this is having on my daughter and I want to weep (or get drunk).

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/11/2021 18:50

I think you meant E, Turquoise, but other than that, yes, AH behaved very badly towards a lot of women on Twitter and in my opinion (which I hope I am still allowed to have, what I assume are my XX chromosomes notwithstanding), he brought the medical profession into disrepute and showed very poor judgement and laid himself open to charges of misogyny. None of these are attractive characteristics in a newly qualified GP.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/11/2021 18:52

... particularly one working part-time in a gender clinic. He has no endocrinology or psychiatric or psychological qualifications as far as I'm aware. If I had the misfortune to have a child of any age with gender issues I'd want her/him seen by a specialist, not a GP with a bee in his bonnet.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/11/2021 18:53

PS When I was first married in the UK in the early 1980s my tax was my husband's responsibility, not mine. If we'd needed to complete a tax return I would have had to provide details of all my income and deductibles to him to add onto his own return. Appalling.

Motorina · 19/11/2021 18:55

@TurquoiseBaubles

So that's it? No more evidence? AH's lawyer has been allowed to say loads of (in my view) incrimination and insulting things about various witnesses and they don't get to answer or explain or put their point of view across?

It's all a bit dissatisfactory.

I just wanted to chip in on this, because I think we're getting a slanted view because of the way the Chair has handled closing submissions.

The way the hearing works is a bit like a dance. It's turn and turn about, following a very standard order.

The last thing is that each side gives closing submissions. That's 45 minutes or an hour, usually, of each side summing up what they think is important and why their side should win.

It's not evidence. It's submissions. It's not given weight as evidence is. It's each side trying to draw attention to what evidence matters.

The prosecution goes first and the defence second. That's standard in all courts - the accused has the right to the final say to defend themselves against any allegations.

What's happened here is that the Chair has asked that those submissions be made in writing. That's unusual.

One consequence of that is we haven't heard them.

What we've heard is the panel asking questions about them.

They had more questions for the defence than the GMC, which means we've heard more about the defence submissions than the GMC ones. It doesn't mean they haven't both had a good go. It's just we know more about what the defence has said.

And, yes, both lawyers are allowed to try and undermine the other side's witnesses. That's standard. It's the consequence of having an adversarial judicial system. Is it nice if you're a witness? No. But Harrop is entitled to be really robust in his defence - ultimately it's his career on the line.

The panel will have the submissions from both sides, in full. We can only really guess at what the GMC said. They'll also have the witness statements in full which, again, unlike it seems half the world's press, we haven't seen.

I suspect with the full information available things look very different than today's tweets might suggest. Because today's tweets are basically the panel trying to clarify the defence position.

Until next week...

MonsignorMirth · 19/11/2021 18:56

I hadn't commented on "faggot" so far as didn't want to derail the thread, and ultimately it's irrelevant to AH's conduct, but seeing as it's being discussed -

I don't buy for a minute that that word was accidentally chosen, and I think E was very foolish to use it when her point would've been made equally well if not better by choosing a word that isn't a homophobic slur. "Firewood" for example.

I think if the shoe was on the other foot most of you would be arguing "how could she not know?". When you're publicly discussing the behaviour of/ in a spat with an openly gay man you simply don't use that word.

AH has misrepresented it, sure.
My extended family used "faggot" in several other meanings not at all related to gay people, but they know full well, as do I, how it will be interpreted nowadays.

MonsignorMirth · 19/11/2021 18:57

And many thanks motorina lucy and others for your insights! Greatly appreciated.

Nasturs · 19/11/2021 19:03

It's interesting that they've asked for submissions in writing. I wonder what might have caused that?

TurquoiseBaubles · 19/11/2021 19:03

Thank you motorina, that makes me feel a little better!

Sorry Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I did mean E not C!

BreadInCaptivity · 19/11/2021 19:05

@Nasturs

It's interesting that they've asked for submissions in writing. I wonder what might have caused that?

Maybe because this case is more high profile than usual?

I note over 6k people are now following tribunalTweets....

Terfasaurus · 19/11/2021 19:05

@MonsignorMirth

I hadn't commented on "faggot" so far as didn't want to derail the thread, and ultimately it's irrelevant to AH's conduct, but seeing as it's being discussed -

I don't buy for a minute that that word was accidentally chosen, and I think E was very foolish to use it when her point would've been made equally well if not better by choosing a word that isn't a homophobic slur. "Firewood" for example.

I think if the shoe was on the other foot most of you would be arguing "how could she not know?". When you're publicly discussing the behaviour of/ in a spat with an openly gay man you simply don't use that word.

AH has misrepresented it, sure.
My extended family used "faggot" in several other meanings not at all related to gay people, but they know full well, as do I, how it will be interpreted nowadays.

Do we have the context in which the tweet was made?

Was she describing a situation with Harrop or some other pile-on?

Not saying you are wrong, but maybe E wasn’t well versed in the tactics of narcissists who twist everything to make it about them.

Motorina · 19/11/2021 19:07

@Nasturs

It's interesting that they've asked for submissions in writing. I wonder what might have caused that?
Best guess? Us. Or, at least, the people feverishly tweeting updates.

Pure guess mind!

FlyingOink · 19/11/2021 19:07

MonsignorMirth yeah, as I suggested upthread, perhaps plausible deniability.

If it was intended to inflame, (pun intended), then it worked. But he shouldn't be so combustible either (pun also intended)

I'm not into taking sides on some twitter spat from a couple years ago, I don't know why everyone's insisting a total stranger definitely wasn't being intentionally rude online when we have no idea if she was or not.

I think you'd have to have been hiding under a rock to debate theory and policy imported from America, in the same language the Americans use, on an American website, and not realise that word was derogatory in the US.

But it is still technically possible E had innocently used that word, and (once again) it really doesn't matter what the intent was, because whether Harrop was provoked or not, his actions were inappropriate.

Cwenthryth · 19/11/2021 19:07

Does one have to take an oath to tell the truth at a tribunal like this? Is it any kind of offence to lie when giving evidence during a tribunal?

Motorina · 19/11/2021 19:10

@Cwenthryth

Does one have to take an oath to tell the truth at a tribunal like this? Is it any kind of offence to lie when giving evidence during a tribunal?
Yes, all evidence is given under oath or affirmation. I suspect (don't know) that it would be perjury to lie on oath in a tribunal. It certainly is in the criminal courts.

Submissions aren't evidence and aren't under oath. It is, however, a breach of professional standards for the representatives to knowingly tell an untruth, which is why you sometimes hear phrases like "My client submits that..."

Ekofisk · 19/11/2021 19:12

@Cwenthryth

Does one have to take an oath to tell the truth at a tribunal like this? Is it any kind of offence to lie when giving evidence during a tribunal?
Yes you do.

You’ll then be asked to take a religious oath, or make an affirmation about the truth of your evidence

www.mpts-uk.org/witnesses/witness-guide-to-hearings/giving-evidence

ExceptionalAssurance · 19/11/2021 19:15

@FlyingOink

MonsignorMirth yeah, as I suggested upthread, perhaps plausible deniability.

If it was intended to inflame, (pun intended), then it worked. But he shouldn't be so combustible either (pun also intended)

I'm not into taking sides on some twitter spat from a couple years ago, I don't know why everyone's insisting a total stranger definitely wasn't being intentionally rude online when we have no idea if she was or not.

I think you'd have to have been hiding under a rock to debate theory and policy imported from America, in the same language the Americans use, on an American website, and not realise that word was derogatory in the US.

But it is still technically possible E had innocently used that word, and (once again) it really doesn't matter what the intent was, because whether Harrop was provoked or not, his actions were inappropriate.

This is all correct.
Cwenthryth · 19/11/2021 19:17

So, AH has committed perjury then?

If he stated as the livetweets said

…The fact that E found it acceptable or tolerable to get on that platform and announce to the world she's been persecuted by 'faggots'…

Because that is not a fact, it is a lie.

Well that needs bringing to the attention of someone in power.

nauticant · 19/11/2021 19:20

AH's testimony will be his interpretation of the tweet. He's allowed to do that. But I would hope that the tribunal panel would check enough to understand that there are two interpretations and in the absence of knowing what E intended, it is wrong to choose one interpretation and to discard the other.

Motorina · 19/11/2021 19:30

@Cwenthryth

So, AH has committed perjury then?

If he stated as the livetweets said

…The fact that E found it acceptable or tolerable to get on that platform and announce to the world she's been persecuted by 'faggots'…

Because that is not a fact, it is a lie.

Well that needs bringing to the attention of someone in power.

Not if he believed it to be true.

He is entitled to defend himself. Part of the defence he is making is that the tweets were made in a particular context, where he felt under attack by people who were being abusive to him and his friends, and when he was angry and upset by that.

Clearly it's up to the panel what weight they give that. But he's not doing something wrong by defending himself or explaining the context.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/11/2021 19:38

Faggots.

  1. Yes, E should have known better. It was a poor choice of words at best. The fact that the pejorative sense of the word is predominantly from the US is besides the point. Twitter is a US website and most younger people will know the US sense and not know the older UK ones.
  1. However, the whole point of this sorry spectacle is that AH is a professional person and should have sufficient restraint and judgement not to rise to provocation, if that's what he perceived it was. To engage in an undignified Twitter spat is not appropriate for a person in his position. Obviously, it's alleged he went a lot further than a spat with E, and I would agree about that. But engaging with her at all was his first mistake.
waterlego · 19/11/2021 19:40

@MonsignorMirth, I agree. Especially as E appears to have what I would consider very outdated views on homosexuality (if E is who I think they are). I disagree with E on numerous things, but we happen to be on the same side in the gender debate.

I think it’s quite possible that word was selected deliberately to get certain people’s backs up.

But none of that is relevant because AH is the person at the centre of the tribunal. AH should have had the self-control to respond in a professional manner.

Motorina · 19/11/2021 19:48

I agree with the comments above.

What matters, in the context of this tribunal, is that AH tweeted what he did when he thought he had been on the receiving end of a particularly nasty slur. Whether E. intended that slur or not is sort of academic.

There are questions that follow. Is AH being honest when he said he thought that? That's somethign the panel - who have heard him - are in a much better place to decide than us. If so, does that belief excuse his subsequent behaviour? Again, the panel, who aren't daft, will decide on that.

What, it seems to me, is pretty irrelevant to the decisions the panel must make is what E. actually meant.

Ekofisk · 19/11/2021 19:50

However, the whole point of this sorry spectacle is that AH is a professional person and should have sufficient restraint and judgement not to rise to provocation, if that's what he perceived it was

Nobody has to reply to anything on social media.

Or even engage in the first place.