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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why aren’t binders a regulated medical device?

91 replies

everythingthelighttouches · 14/11/2021 11:34

I’m just getting my head around this and wondering if there is recourse via MHRA.

Anyone looked into this?

Definition according to government website:

www.gov.uk/guidance/medical-devices-how-to-comply-with-the-legal-requirements

Definition of a medical device
You need to decide if your product is a medical device before you go through the compliance process.

According to the Medical Devices Regulations 2002 (SI 2002 No 618, as amended) (UK MDR 2002), a medical device is described as any instrument, apparatus, appliance, software, material or other article, whether used alone or in combination, together with any accessories, including the software intended by its manufacturer to be used specifically for diagnosis or therapeutic purposes or both and necessary for its proper application, which is intended by the manufacturer to be used for human beings for the purpose of:

diagnosis, prevention, monitoring, treatment or alleviation of disease
diagnosis, monitoring, treatment, alleviation of or compensation for an injury or handicap
investigation, replacement or modification of the anatomy or of a physiological process, or
control of conception”

Email address for reporting non-compliance n the link below. What I’m not sure of is whether selling an item which should be regulated but is not is non-compliance??? e.g.Lush

www.gov.uk/government/publications/report-a-non-compliant-medical-device-enforcement-process/report-a-non-compliant-or-suspected-counterfeit-medical-device

Is there recourse through general consumer act or something?

OP posts:
WarriorN · 15/11/2021 10:09

When my asthma is mildly bad I've had to go bra free ffs.

WarriorN · 15/11/2021 10:10

Transgender individuals using chest binders have abnormal lung function. The acute effect of wearing the binder appears to be an overall volume reduction with little other change.
REFERENCES
[1] Cumming, R., Sylvester, K. & Fuld, J.P. (2016). Understanding the effects on lung function of chest binder use in the transgender population. Thorax 71. Linkk_]

Thanks Helle.

WarriorN · 15/11/2021 10:11

I've lived with low level reduced lung function. It wasn't hugely reduced. My asthma is mild in comparison to some.

I had chronic fatigue.

A week after starting my latest inhaler my energy went through the roof from the extra oxygen.

WarriorN · 15/11/2021 10:12

Its just another form of self harm.

Helleofabore · 15/11/2021 10:16

Well, we needed to have something to read while we wait for the statistics and evidence for my request from the posters who are very keen to allow under 18s to have access (even parental supervised access is problematic) to breast binders.

Instead of, you know, developing alternative ways to deal with the issue that improves overall health as well. Like changing the narrative that young females need to replicate a stereotypical 'male' body. Like learning to deal with a society that has become very keen on objectifying women and girls. Like providing intensive mental health support to help overcome the need to bind their breasts.

WarriorN · 15/11/2021 10:23

Exactly Helle 👏

WarriorN · 15/11/2021 10:24

@WarriorN

Its just another form of self harm.

Directed by misogyny

hoodathunkit · 15/11/2021 10:32

@anaily - you said
My body my choice

It is worth noticing this position is the same as the anti-vaxx movement, the people who promote quackery and snake oil over evidence based medicine, the same as people who undertake horrific body modifications and the same as the pro-sex work activists. It also resonates with the extreme batshit end of the “body positive” movement and even the networks of “thinspiration” and self-harming groups on social media and other groups on the dark web.

Of course these things are always complex and I do believe that in general terms our bodies belong to us, they are the only things we ever really truly own, and we should be allowed to do to our bodies what we want to do and not be dictated by others, however…..

Anyone who has not been living under a stone for the last few years will appreciate that the human body is at the centre of multiple discourses, personal and political, regarding power, independence, violations, truth and lack of truth.

Anyone who has been paying attention will also be aware of the rising influence of cults, whether spiritual, political or personal development orientated or simply orientated around dysfunctional power dynamics. Anyone aware of these issues will be aware of soft methods of controlling vulnerable people based on social contagion, peer pressure, altered states of consciousness, isolation from friends and families and the influence of celebrities and online “influencers”.

None of us are every truly alone and not influenced by mainstream media, social media and various other forces. There is no binary opposition of decisions made by an “authentic self” and, on the other hand, decisions influenced by outside forces. These things are incredibly nuanced.

Many of the vulnerable people involved in cults that I research talk of bodily sovereignty / body sovereignty and a search of these words on YouTube will provide sone interesting results.

It is fascinating to me that some of the people who believe they have recovered or awakened their bodily sovereignty are people who are deeply in the thrall of abusive cults.

This is not a new thing. Anti-vaxxers have long trumped themselves as free and awakened and dismiss others contemptuously as “sheeple”, sometimes even as they lie on their death beds.

Possibly the most illuminating comparison is of smokers’ rights campaigners who shout about freedom whilst harming their own lives and the lives of others with smoke. The tobacco industry has long promoted discourses that smoking = rebellion and freedom whereas in fact is it a pernicious addiction and slavery to harmful chemicals.

Just sharing some thoughts.

I also wanted to congratulate the OP on making this connection. I am impressed and would recommend pursuing action against retailers of binders on this basis.

I successfully reported a seller of disgusting and dangerous jamu sticks to the authorities and got them withdrawn from sale, at least from one retailer who was making unfounded medical claims about them. It was years ago and I don’t recall all of the details, but all it took as a phone call and they acted rapidly to address the situation. So go get ‘em OP would be my suggestion.

anaily · 15/11/2021 11:06

@FlyingOink

I have a dull ache on my left side and it hurts when i breath because i wore it over night.

Is that with a commercial binder? If so, how does this follow, logically:
That might happen more when you try to ban it and drive it underground with DIY methods.

Because what you're saying is that you're an adult with the "proper kit" and you have still managed to injure yourself and you don't follow your own advice.
What about your statement will make anyone think a child would do better than you have?

I use elasticated velcro straps, so diy, not "proper kit". This might happen more as you want to restrict access to safe alternative and information on how to do it safely. With my velcro i can loosen it easily or take it off quickly.

Under 18 with supervision can avoid injury, they can get snug fitting binders, not ones that are overly tight, patents will be aware and can set max time limits, education on when it shouldn't be worn (over night or exercising), they can look for signs of discomfort. Be open and communicate, not try to get it banned to stop binding.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 15/11/2021 11:06

I really don’t think it is my place to question decisions of other adults. And I am really not inclined to question other’s beyond a theoretical discussion.

Some of you here seem to think we (sorry if I speak for anyone who disagrees) are questioning your right to do what you want. I really don’t. I believe adults can chose to have breast implants, facelifts, bind their breasts or have surgery on their genitalia as they please. I also think they have the right to decline any immunisation including Covid (what is it, 20% risk of dying if over 60 with a health condition?) . It would not be my choices but you do you.

Most women here only question the safeguarding aspect of the marketing of this to children. And the way it seems to try to go behind parents backs to push something we believe is harmful. Children need to be protected from long term or permanent consequences of decisions made by an immature brain.

I will tell my children that they should not make any decisions like binding until they are adults. I also ensure that they are fully immunised. I am a parent, I protect my children. And I believe other children should be protected as well.

Helleofabore · 15/11/2021 11:21

Under 18 with supervision can avoid injury, they can get snug fitting binders, not ones that are overly tight, patents will be aware and can set max time limits, education on when it shouldn't be worn (over night or exercising), they can look for signs of discomfort. Be open and communicate, not try to get it banned to stop binding.

Do you actually have a teenager anaily?

I can tell you that there is a large % of these teenagers who have not told their parents that they are doing this. And that they completely ignore the parents already saying that this is dangerous.

What makes you think that these teenagers will listen to their parents on when to wear these devices and do as recommended? They are being told by adults who have no interest outside their own needs, that it is fine. That it is harmless. The message is reinforced by their peers.

I have witnessed this type of discussion.

You magically think that 'being open' will remedy this.

I notice that not once have you mentioned that perhaps society and groups that are pushing this agenda need to stop with the message. You obviously seem to disbelieve the harm that these devices cause.

hoodathunkit · 15/11/2021 11:21

I really don’t think it is my place to question decisions of other adults. And I am really not inclined to question other’s beyond a theoretical discussion.

The problem is that some adults are extremely vulnerable and need protection.

When I was falsely diagnosed with delusional disorder I attended various charities and CICs providing services to adults suffering from long-term serious mental health issues.

Many of the people attending were experiencing very serious mental health problems that left them extremely vulneable to abuse and exploitation.

Such people would be advised to not make significant life changes whilst so unwell. It is typical for people who are properly supported to be advised not to sell their house, buy a new car, change their job or divorce / marry their partner, whilst experiencing significant mental health problems.

This is an extremely important point as people who are very mentally unwell frequently want something to change and often make very bad decisions whilst very vulnerable.

I have know people to buy 2 cars in one day, give away extremely valuable items to charty shops and make other life changing decisions all whilst suffering from serious mental illness.

Yet whilst attending these allegedly supportive services I encountered many extremely vulnerable people who were very unwell mentally "transitioning", taking hormones and either considering or undergoing surgery.

It is an outrageous situation and children and vulnerable adults need to be protected from actors who do not have their best interests at heart.

ArabellaScott · 15/11/2021 11:32

you want to restrict access to safe alternative and information on how to do it safely

No, anailly. We've said this very clearly. What women want is MORE information, more research, more awareness. the only people that have suggested a 'ban' are those of you determined to convince us that binders are 'perfectly safe'.

And as I posted above, the peer reviewed evidence suggested that custom made binders produced more damage than 'diy' methods.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 15/11/2021 11:33

The problem is that some adults are extremely vulnerable and need protection

Of course. I get that some may need help. But not from me (I am not qualified). The mental health services may need to do a thorough review on how they treat this group. But for me, ultimately, they are adults. They, maybe together with their friends/family need to establish whether they need help or not. And if they do, the treatment should be adequate.

But health care will never be sufficient. I have someone extremely close to me at the moment who is very likely to not make it another year due to delays in chemo during Covid. This is the most wonderful person and I cannot express the extent of the loss to my family. Healthcare at the moment sucks, for everyone.

I don’t have the emotional capability to worry about an adult who wants to get a boob job (male or female) or mastectomy (female).

Helleofabore · 15/11/2021 11:33

What women want is MORE information, more research, more awareness.

Definitely!

ArabellaScott · 15/11/2021 11:34

hooda, thanks for really interesting and thoughtful perspectives. The boundaries and lines of rights and responsibilities of the body, the self and the Other do seem to come up frequently. Shifts in cultural beliefs and ideas, I suppose, and conflicts between different ideologies, reasoning and faith etc.

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