Why aren’t binders a regulated medical device?

[everythingthelighttouches]

I’m just getting my head around this and wondering if there is recourse via MHRA.

Anyone looked into this?

Definition according to government website:

www.gov.uk/guidance/medical-devices-how-to-comply-with-the-legal-requirements

“ Definition of a medical device
You need to decide if your product is a medical device before you go through the compliance process.

According to the Medical Devices Regulations 2002 (SI 2002 No 618, as amended) (UK MDR 2002), a medical device is described as any instrument, apparatus, appliance, software, material or other article, whether used alone or in combination, together with any accessories, including the software intended by its manufacturer to be used specifically for diagnosis or therapeutic purposes or both and necessary for its proper application, which is intended by the manufacturer to be used for human beings for the purpose of:

diagnosis, prevention, monitoring, treatment or alleviation of disease
diagnosis, monitoring, treatment, alleviation of or compensation for an injury or handicap
investigation, replacement or modification of the anatomy or of a physiological process, or
control of conception”

Email address for reporting non-compliance n the link below. What I’m not sure of is whether selling an item which should be regulated but is not is non-compliance??? e.g.Lush

www.gov.uk/government/publications/report-a-non-compliant-medical-device-enforcement-process/report-a-non-compliant-or-suspected-counterfeit-medical-device

Is there recourse through general consumer act or something?

@snekkes

*Actually that large scale study showed DIY binding was less harmful than binders, iirc.*

Regardless of what the large scale study says, in practise this is laughable. Surely you can see that a properly fitted binder is way less harmful than duct tape or Ace bandages (which are designed to constrict, so as you breathe, they get tighter and tighter).

I prefer to use the most reliable evidence possible. So I'd say that was the peer reviewed study.

I mean, a binder is obviously also designed to constrict. That is how you flatten a breast. There is no other way to make tissue take up less space or be less prominent than by constriction.

I would definitely like to see some NHS/Nice guidelines, though. That would seem sensible.

The funny thing is that a group of people who have never seen or worn a binder are discussing them….

A reality check? Oh, good lord.

I'm also concerned about FGM, despite not having experienced it myself. And child marriage, and unnecessary circumcision. This is 'mumsnet'; I find it really odd that you are surprised that mothers are concerned about potentially harmful practises among young people.

The funny thing is that a group of people who have never seen or worn a binder are discussing them….

Oh. This again.

And yet, many of us are parents of teenagers who this is entirely relevant to.

Again, crack on doing what you want. Stop making out this is harmless.

And stop trying to ‘shame’ people, parents included, from discussing the harms here.

@Itsanewdah

The funny thing is that a group of people who have never seen or worn a binder are discussing them…. And at the same time normalization objectively damaging body shaping devices that they deem to be appropriate and are commonly worn by under 18 year olds. A short reality check: Good binders are expensive. Mine are £40 a piece. You generally need a credit card to buy one. The chance that an 11 year old manages to buy one and wear it nonstop ( as implied above) is laughable and would need some seriously unengaged parents (they are binders! Its bloody obvious if you wear one!). Good ones allow you to breath just fine - its the cheapos via amazon that can be trouble, or ace bandages etc (trans tape is fine, but you can’t get it in the uk). Binders also don’t have and claims attached - apart from flattening your chest. Same as bras really, just that bras promise bigger chests or support while being active. They also don’t promise or provide a completely flat chest. Depending on cup size, that’s just not possible. I have a small b cup, my binder gives my a flat chest. Anything bigger - its flatter, not but not completely flat. People on here seem to think that a binder squeezes DDcups completely flat. That’s completely unrealistic.

11 year olds can arrange to get them from lush.

If they are only just developing then it wouldn’t be obvious under baggy clothing at all.

Breasts aren’t just random lumps of fat. They are organs designed to make milk for infants. It isn’t just flattening thighs, it’s compressing an organ and that causes long term damage. According to the nhs there is serious risks associated with wearing them and they won’t endorse them.

Mother’s can care about issues that impact our children’s safety and well-being.

People on here seem to think that a binder squeezes DDcups completely flat. That’s completely unrealistic.

^ This. E cups for sure will not be flat. (But it's entirely possible to have a great result from top surgery after five years of responsbily wearing a high quality binder to lessen the appearance of E cups.)

@everythingthelighttouches

“ A good quality binder worn correctly is not a health risk.”

How do you know???
It hasn’t been tested.

“You don't see the pros but heavily focus on the cons”
What are the pros?? How do you know??

Pros= Changes my appearance to my preference = stupid fashion item

OR
Pros= Necessary to improve the mental health of vulnerable people, despite the physical harm = should be tested and regulated.

There is a difference between a fashion item (see high heels, corsets as someone mentioned) and something that is designed and marketed to have therapeutic benefit.

People will always find ways to do something but that doesn’t mean it should be marketed as having a benefit.

That is irresponsible, misleading and taking advantage of a vulnerable group (the group who are in need of the therapeutic benefit).

The reason that we have a medicines regulatory authority in the U.K. is to protect patients and consumers.

Don’t people who believe that a binder is offering them some therapeutic benefit deserve to have that rigorously tested ?

and proven to 1) be safe 2) actually offer the benefit it is purporting to have???

If not, then it is just a fashion item…

If no benefit then manufacturers, retailers, trans charities, institutions (including NICE and the NHS) should not be putting any misinformation out there that implies any kind of health (mental or physical) benefit whatsoever.

Oh, and generally we don’t try to sell high heels and corsets to children.

Because it is damaging to their bodies.

How do i know? Errrr i wear them at times. Do you? Pros: makes me feel comfortable in myself, gives me confidence, my body my choice. I follow someone on social media that binds, it's very obvious when they don't wear a binder. It's our individual choice and we have our reasons for wearing them. You talk about "a group" and want to dictate your opinion on to that group without ever listening to that very group.

I've listened to you. I am not convinced.

Binders are clearly harmful.

Children and those under 18 should not be getting them handed out with their glittery unicorn bath bombs.

Convince you of what? I don't need your permission or approval. My body my choice. It's harmful with your silly approach. Under 18 i personally think it should be with parental supervision rather than diy, so properly fitting. I have a dull ache on my left side and it hurts when i breath because i wore it over night. That might happen more when you try to ban it and drive it underground with DIY methods. Rather than going against the group you want to ""protect"" maybe engage with us. You have 2 ears and 1 mouth, use that ratio.

Right you are, ducks.

Ace bandages (which are designed to constrict, so as you breathe, they get tighter and tighter)
How does this work? They're just stretchy bandages, how do they tighten themselves?

Ace is a US brand name, I see they're available on amazon etc here now. But these kinds of bandages have been available for years. Do they only self-tighten if placed on the torso? I've used them elsewhere and never noticed this phenomenon.

I have a dull ache on my left side and it hurts when i breath because i wore it over night.

Is that with a commercial binder? If so, how does this follow, logically:
That might happen more when you try to ban it and drive it underground with DIY methods.

Because what you're saying is that you're an adult with the "proper kit" and you have still managed to injure yourself and you don't follow your own advice.
What about your statement will make anyone think a child would do better than you have?

Breast ironing (my bold):

www.safeguardingcambspeterborough.org.uk/children-board/professionals/procedures/breast-ironing/

2. Definition

“The United Nations (UN) states that Breast Ironing affects 3.8 million women around the world and has been identified as one of the five under-reported crimes relating to gender-based violence. The custom uses large stones, a hammer or spatulas that have been heated over scorching coals to compress the breast tissue of girls as young as 9 years old. Those who derive from richer families may opt to use an elastic belt to press the breasts so as to prevent them from growing.”

“The mutilation is a traditional practice from Cameroon designed to make teenage girls look less ‘womanly’ and to deter unwanted male attention, pregnancy and rape. The practice is commonly performed by family members, 58% of the time by the mother. In many cases the abuser thinks they are doing something good for their daughter, by delaying the effects of puberty so that she can continue her education, rather than getting married.”

Why is it abuse if the breasts of a Cameroonian girl are bound, but celebrated if the breasts of a gender non-conforming girl are bound?

Harmless? And because you wore it too long you now suffer pain? Do You understand that pain is your bodies way of telling you that binding your breasts is the very opposite of ‘harmless’?

You are an adult. You make your own choices. But you cannot deny that no person under the age of 18 should be using them, parental supervision or not. The study that shows binding impedes breathing are clear.

When is it a suitable time of day/week for a child to impede their breathing? To restrict their movements because of what they are wearing?

I find it hard to believe we are being told Binders are perfectly safe and described as ‘shapewear’, including high heels, by one poster. Told that another has worn theirs for too long in one stint and is suffering pain. While both posters are declaring that those that oppose under 18 year old females wearing binders are just ignorant because people will just do it anyway.

How dare any adult try to stop their child making decisions that may cause them to permanently harm themselves? How dare any adult seek to try and address the root of the issue in the first place - the need to do it?

I find it hard to believe we are being told Binders are perfectly safe and described as ‘shapewear’, including high heels, by one poster.

I didn’t describe them as ‘perfectly safe’. I described them as no more harmful than some of the stupid things I wore as a teen, one of which I noted left me with a permanent dicky ankle. The list of harms from heels (ankle damage, bunions, shortened achilles, distorted toes, foot pain, blisters…) is greater than anything I have seen from binders. But we don’t ban those.

I also noted that it would be hard to distinguish in law between garments which smoosh the breasts down and those that use wires and padding to smoosh them up. Both are distorting the breasts for aesthetics. Having worn both, the latter is substantially less comfortable. The latter are also associated with injuries.

I don’t like binders. But I don’t like them because I see them as a ‘gateway drug’ to medical transition, which emphatically is harmful to teens. I think what lush is doing is appalling, because they’re going behind parents backs.

But I think trying to get them banned as a medical device is a hiding to nothing. Particularly as the more lightly regulated medical devices (bandages, splints, pulse oximetres) are freely available for kids to buy, anyway.

@anaily

Convince you of what? I don't need your permission or approval. My body my choice. It's harmful with your silly approach. Under 18 i personally think it should be with parental supervision rather than diy, so properly fitting. I have a dull ache on my left side and it hurts when i breath because i wore it over night. That might happen more when you try to ban it and drive it underground with DIY methods. Rather than going against the group you want to ""protect"" maybe engage with us. You have 2 ears and 1 mouth, use that ratio.

So you agree that binders, especially when being used by children, should be subject to rigorous safety testing and fitness for use, and fitted properly to ensure they do no damage to a child's body or cause pain or long term issues?

I think questions need to be raised and those involved in child safeguarding need to be aware of all the potential risks. How many companies make binders? Are they all vigorously tested to make sure they're not going to cause the most serious damage?

Perhaps if they had to be prescription doctors could assess and prescribe better types or some of the other types with fewer side effects? And monitor their patient's health.

I'm sure teachers would welcome guidance, doctors and families too. How does one go about asking for NHS guidance into something like this? I think am awareness campaign on the possible dangers/harms and ways to avoid would be good too.

Motorina

And my comment wasn’t directed at you. But the poster who first introduced heels and other ‘body modification’ devices.

Incidentally, were you wearing a binder or a minimizer bra? There is a difference. As an adult or a child? And were you wearing it on a daily basis in school including when you are supposed to be doing exercise, being able to take in lessons and in hot weather.

As a adult, if you choose to wear bras/corsets etc for whatever purpose, that is your choice and if you persist despite pain, well… that is your issue too.

If you are someone who is still developing your mental processes (as is well known, yet people still throw body ‘autonomy’ around for under 18), and your social media feed is full of people minimising the harms of binders (not minimising bras), your search engine has deprioritised any information on negative effects of breast binding and others who have vested interest are also telling you it is harmless or therapeutic, what chance do you have of getting to see the negative effects listed?

Forget about ever finding a diagram or a photo of breast damage on Google - but you may find many images of smiling young females with double mastectomies.

@Helleofabore I've made and worn a range of corsetry from 16th C stays, to modern goth steelboned designed for tight lacing. I've worn wonderbras. And I've worn a binder. Not a minimizer bra - a binder. No, I'm not trans, but in my teens and twenties was pretty passionate about costuming.

I've also worn a sports bra, sometimes for 24 hour stretches. Ultra-runner. Yes, I have weird hobbies.

The binder was actually pretty similar to the sports bra. Hang out in any running group and you'll hear discussions of sports bra chafing and pain, which sound remarkably similar to the harms claimed for binders. Be warned: there will also be graphic toe nail pictures.

The most painful (and the one which left the most visible marks) was the wonderbra.

I think breastbinding in young people is awful because it's the first step on the road to double mastectomies. But I am not convinced, from my own experience, that a binder is inherently any more painful or harmful than any of the other shapewear that women contort themselves into.

I really do think it would be difficult to write a law which would require medical intervention for the sale of one but not the others. I've never worn Spanx, but the ads claim it will smoosh you two sizes smaller. Why is this inherently different from squidging a C cup to a AA? How do you word a law which distinguishes between the two?

I do not think anyone should be providing children or young people with binders (or bras!) without their parents knowing. If the young person is exploring their gender identity then they should probably be directed to supportive (not affirming!) therapy. The unquestioning acceptance of name, gender and pronoun shifts in teens is damaging, particularly when it happens behind their parents backs. Of course it is. And the provision of binders can be part of that.

But that doesn't mean that they're physically any worse than many other things women choose to wear.

I've also worn a sports bra, sometimes for 24 hour stretches

As have I. I have not had any issues ever with bras. And my sport's bras fit well. And I have needed to wear a bra to sleep in at times due to hormonal breast pain.

So, have you worn a binder all day and while exercising?

The funny thing is that a group of people who have never seen or worn a binder are discussing them….

I have never smoked, but I am perfectly happy and competent to discuss the health damage caused by cigarettes.

So far we have been told:

Women shouldn't discuss the use of binders if they haven't used one themselves. We should shut up and listen, instead.

We should disregard peer reviewed evidence in favour of anecdote from anonymous internet people.

The use of binders is inconsequential and 'perfectly harmless', they are no different than a fashion item, yet concurrently they are crucial to the mental health/wellbeing of those who wish to use them.

I don't think anyone here has suggested banning them, just research and possible regulation. Find it a little odd that anyone would think more research and support for gender dysphoric young people would be a bad thing. Why leap straight from 'can we get research and regulation that would help young people' to 'OMG they want to ban these life saving devices I mean fashion items'?

@RoyalCorgi

The funny thing is that a group of people who have never seen or worn a binder are discussing them….

I have never smoked, but I am perfectly happy and competent to discuss the health damage caused by cigarettes.

I, too, have never smoked and am also perfectly happy and competent to discuss the health damage caused by cigarettes.

And... I will add to that.... I will be advising my teenager to not take up smoking as well. Despite my not having smoked before.

I had a good chat with Thomasin who was a detransitioned woman who came to our local feminist group.

She said she had chronic costochondritis from binding.

Need to bare in mind that there's evidence of trans identified teens with lower bone density due to poor vitamin d levels. People who struggle with body dysmorphia tend to cover up and may nothave the confidence to do sports etc which support one density etc. (Also a knob issue among some children an teens with autism. We struggle to get some of our young people to participate in sports or movement of any sort.) Not to mention the impact of puberty blockers on bone density.

Softer bones means any constricting of the chest area reduces lung capacity and will permanently alter the shape of the chest.

Swimming and playing a wind instrument is shown to positively impact lung capacity which helps any one, but especially those with asthma. (Before I was diagnosed with asthma I'd actually managed it well with flute playing and lots of swimming.)

Constriction on the ribs reduces lung capacity; I can't imagine how dangerous this is for anyone with asthma, let alone a growing body.

I see no difference between binding, 19th century corsets, foot binding and breast ironing.

All ways to hurt, harm and control women, by patriarchal systems.

And those ignoring my post about how seriously OTs take any construction of a young rib cage are complicit in harm imo.

Actually, perhaps anaily and newdah will provide the evidence that I was asking for on the AIBU thread where we were told to 'educate' ourselves.

Please provide the evidence that shows us that the majority of young female who identifies as trans who is wearing a binder or seeks to wear a binder and may be one of the large % that suffers permanent damage from wearing a binder will persist into adulthood.

So to help you out, please link up the studies that show the % of those going through GIDS at the moment that will persist into adulthood, and then also the % of detransition from studies that reflect the current cohort of female transitioners.

Then, please link up the estimate of those wearing binders who are even registered with GIDS. Because out of my teens group where I know at least three are wearing binders, not one is registered with GIDS.

And then, please provide us with the words that you would use for your now adult child when you tell them that the risk of damage to their chests, breasts and fitness was worthwhile collateral damage in case they were in the x% that persisted. That it would have been considered hateful to prevent them at the time from expressing their true selves.

And that their damage was also acceptable collateral. Because the lack of discussion, the lack of voices opposing, and the downplaying of the negative effects by media, by adults who are supposed to be impartial, by their friends, supported those who went on to have their breasts completely removed.

Constriction on the ribs reduces lung capacity; I can't imagine how dangerous this is for anyone with asthma, let alone a growing body.

www.statsforgender.org/binding/

has links to the studies that show the constriction of breathing. It really just provides support for common sense hypothesis and anecdotal evidence.