Help me explain to my teenager!

[biggirlknickers]

She thinks there is “no debate” and if a man decides he’s a woman then he wouldn’t go to all that trouble if it wasn’t genuine. He should be seen as a woman. His rights cannot be viewed as different from women’s rights. Even if he is anatomically male. Chromosomes have nothing to do with it, people can be born in the wrong body and I am “not grasping this”.

I need some very easy to digest, difficult to refute points to give her. I’m absolutely overwhelmed with work, health issues etc and I simply don’t have the brain space to give to this right now and I know you lot will help me out.

It doesn’t help that she is very feisty snd I am super placid.

I don’t want to shrink from this though - she needs to understand the other side. She has only been exposed to TRA beliefs so far, from her friends and on Tiktok etc.

Help me!

Since the OP's daughter is not about to be sent to prison, horror stories about rapists in women's prisons will add little to the mother - daughter relationship (in my opinion and experience).

I wonder if the ops daughter will ever play sport, go into a women's changing room, use a public toilet, go into hospital, need intimate medical treatment, join the girl guides....

OP, maybe step away from the trans issue specifically, and discuss other things that predators have done in order to abuse.

Such as buying a school.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a4290737-Queen-Ethelburga-school-and-sex-abuse?msgid=108864926#108864926

Discuss how people dress up as meter readers in order to steal from people's homes.

So let me get this straight
People so far have said does she know about
AGP
Porn
Trans criminals

(and suggested that she needs to know about them)
to a teen.
Who in any other circumstance, people would be saying that she (rightly) shouldn't be exposed to things like that.
Aye, OK
I think the Lorena Bobbit example was a good one,, you wouldn't do that would you (I presume) so why in this case?

The wrong body thing-

I find that offensive when you consider people with disabilities who may really suffer with physical pain. Or someone with autism who struggles daily with sensory overload. Are they born in the wrong body? How are you born in the wrong body?

Secondly, it's immensely sexist to say their body doesn't match their brain. This implies that girls have stereotypical "pink brains. " regressive and old fashioned.

Of course teenage girls need to know about porn! Pretending it doesn’t exist makes them vulnerable. Also, I have brought my daughters up to have empathy. No, I don’t think they will ever end up in prison but they need to know how some women do. They know about the people I work with, who ARE the most vulnerable in society through a combination of poverty and disability. I hope they will never be in that position but they need to know what some people are living with. Bloody hell the only way things will change is if the next generation or the one after that changes it. CatherinaJTV, your children are in for a hell of a shock!

NoNotMeNoSiree there is a massive difference between talking about porn and exposing children to it. Any child given access to the internet needs an age appropriate discussion about what to do if they see something disturbing. My young tweens are aware that porn exists, who it is largely aimed at, and how exploitative it is. We have talked about online predators and about how they target teens, focusing on their hobbies and or insecurities. This has covered (very briefly) furries and anime porn, as they both enjoying drawing anime human/animal characters and sharing their images online. Are you suggesting there was something inappropriate about having had these discussions with them?

A poster who attends a private all girls school recently described peers who had no idea about what real disadvantage and being marginalised was and the way in which women can find themselves in horrific circumstances, and were championing trans rights and men's rights to dress as women.

One of the issues I feel is that young women today don't know about the importance of women's rights and how laws are needed to specifically protect vulnerable women. Particularly of course linked to being exploited for sex or if they have young children and abusive partners or ex partners.

I'm in my 40s and till about 20'years ago was under the impression men and women had no inequalities. Having kids was a factor, but also seeing friend after friend suffer domestic abuse and violence. Especially difficult those who gave up their careers for children as they then relied on the partner financially.

We need to be careful not to swing too far into "life is shit for women" as a few detransitioned women describe this as a driver for not being a women.

Some of the detransitioned women on twitter and on blogs describe very eloquently why biology matters. Their voices may be important.

CatherinaJTV, your children are in for a hell of a shock!

They are all safely grown up into competent adults and, of course, have trans friends. Their opions of trans phobes and hyperbole about the "inherent dangers" of trans women would get them booted off this board. Good kids! I am proud

Who in any other circumstance, people would be saying that she (rightly) shouldn't be exposed to things like that.

Teaching a child is not the same as exposing them to danger. It's making them aware of the things they need to know in all circumstances. Just because the topic is around trans issues does not mean that parents should stay silent and let tik tok and their peers teach them instead. I wonder how many parents have chosen not to teach their children what they need to know about this subject. When in all other circumstances they would have taught their children the dangers that could be present around them and how to keep themselves safe from that. You have raised an interesting point although not the point you were trying to make. But it fits in with the idea that safeguarding is often ignored at every level when it comes to the trans topic.

Perhaps accept for arguing purposes that transwomen are women, but point out that women with male body cells and genes () offend at the same rate as cis men, and can generally overpower women, which is why women have always needed single sex spaces.

Also, that make bodied people can get female bodied people pregnant regardless of whether they are cis or trans.

Ask what the difference is between a trans woman and a man.

"and if a man decides he’s a woman then he wouldn’t go to all that trouble if it wasn’t genuine."

I wonder what she regards as "trouble", because hardly any transgender people have any surgery, they simply "self identify" as the opposite sex.
The main problem with self identifying, is that it makes it very easy for sexual predators to take advantage of the situation.

www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1169574524280606721

@CatherinaJTV

CatherinaJTV, your children are in for a hell of a shock!

They are all safely grown up into competent adults and, of course, have trans friends. Their opions of trans phobes and hyperbole about the "inherent dangers" of trans women would get them booted off this board. Good kids! I am proud

Clearly they have never met anyone who is ; a liar; a cheat; a criminal;a sexual predator; seriously psychologically disturbed; or with serious and enduring mental health issues then. I have and can tell you there are more around than you would want to know about, Sometimes all of those groups can behave very badly even viciously. It isn't a huge step to realize some may pretend to be trans or believe they are just to access vulnerable people. It happens all the time in other walks of life.

When my dd started to waver it was on these issues:

1. Womens Sport - she knows how boys bodies compare to girls since she's at school so is aware that girls couldn't compete against boys fairly. There's lots of good photos about this. Would she really be ok being tackled by someone much larger and stronger? Is it fair if she lost out on a sports scholarship because she can't run as fast as someone who is a foot taller?

2. Being gay - she doesn't believe that being gay should be called transphobic. And gay = same genitals. If you're trans then you should look for dates amongst pansexual people. Gay people fought for respect decades ago and accusing people of a genital fetish is sending gay rights back to the past.

3. Prisons- there should be trans wings. People with penises shouldn't be incarcerated with people with vaginas. If genitals don't matter in the prison population then what stops mixing men and women?

4. Why do we have single sex spaces anyway? Would your dd be ok with unisex changing rooms at school? Is she in one of those secondary schools with unisex toilets ? If she's on the older side then would she have been confident enough to open her tampon/sanitary towel wrapper in a loo and use the sanitary bin when a boy might overhear? What about making the sound of weeing ?

@parietal

ok, so there are lots of 'gotcha' points here, but a 'gotcha' is not normally a good way to start a discussion and change someones mind. it normally just makes them more hostile.

OP - start being open & keep the conversation going. ask her to explain her opinions to you. ask her to explain what it means to be born in the wrong body. ask her to explain what would happen if a male-born person competes in women's sport. Don't jump in with any gotcha arguments or the examples of criminals. Just keep talking openly about the topic and let her come to realise that her explanations aren't quite working.

you'll never get her to change her mind in one conversation, so the best option is to keep talking and exploring the ideas.

This is basically how I have approached talking to my teen about a range of issues. Talk, listen, explain, compare and consider why other people have different opinions. I think you have to be willing to agree to disagree and teaching your teen how to agree to disagree is in itself a really useful tool for debate. A lot of the discussion we have at home, I have also framed issues as structural - not personal. Things are rarely simple, to reduce complex issues to soundbites is naive and if your response to being challenged is to resort to name calling it rather proves you have no argument.

They are all safely grown up into competent adults smile and, of course, have trans friends. Their opions of trans phobes and hyperbole about the "inherent dangers" of trans women would get them booted off this board. Good kids! I am proud

My children have trans friends as well. Teaching your children about all the issues around trans ideology (not just the nice happy bits) does not equal transphobia. Your obligations to your children go far beyond safeguarding and that includes teaching them what is true and what isn't. This provides them with the tools to make decisions for themselves with all the knowledge they need.

Did you teach your children how to safeguard themselves in other area of their lives?

She thinks there is “no debate” and if a man decides he’s a woman then he wouldn’t go to all that trouble if it wasn’t genuine. He should be seen as a woman.
Tell her that you understand her argument which can be summarised as "(a) this is what I think, (b) I demand that you go along with it even though you don't agree with it and (c) I will not discuss it".
Then tell her that you wish to impose that she does (a) more homework/revision, (b) does not go out on a schoolnight and (c) goes and tidies her bedroom. Now.

Do you think that she will comply with your ideology without debate?

Re Lorena Bobbitt

Extreme violence by women against men is so rare we remember this one incident from nearly 3 decades ago. Who knows the names of the 2-3 women killed by domestic violence this week? Male violence against women is so commonplace it's boring and un-newsworthy. That's why teenage girls need to know that males, as a group, can be dangerous and that it's not about demonising individuals, just being aware of reality (the stats on prison numbers by sex and crime show this reality). And transwomen are male.

Everyone knows someone who claims their Nan lived to 95 and smoked 10 woodbines a day. That doesn't mean we teach kids that smoking is healthy and cool. Outliers like Lorena Bobbitt don't mean that ACTUALLY women are just as aggressive as men. I mean FFS.

This is the way the young are rebelling these days. They will move on from these views. The more we tell them the more stubborn they will get. Unfortunately, schools are pushing this and so is social media so it is all bizarre as it is not really rebelling but complying.

so it is all bizarre as it is not really rebelling but complying

True. Real rebellion would be when they think for themselves and disagree with what they are being pushed to believe. Children grow in to being actual adults by learning to think for themselves.

[quote andyoldlabour]"and if a man decides he’s a woman then he wouldn’t go to all that trouble if it wasn’t genuine."

I wonder what she regards as "trouble", because hardly any transgender people have any surgery, they simply "self identify" as the opposite sex.
The main problem with self identifying, is that it makes it very easy for sexual predators to take advantage of the situation.

www.scotsman.com/regions/edinburgh-fife-and-lothians/female-spaces-need-better-protection-after-trans-woman-sex-assault-girl-say-campaigners-140883

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1169574524280606721[/quote]
I think I can understand what the OP's DD means by 'all the trouble' because I used to think this too - that all trans people experience severe dysphoria and do everything they can to 'be seen as a woman'.

Blanchard's work was an eye-opener.
Could you suggests she reads it and then you can discuss it together?

I think the best way to put across an unpopular point of view is to first find everything you agree on. The vast, vast majority of trans people are decent normal people living decent normal lives, so there should be lots of easy common ground.

Then introduce the idea that trans people are not born in the wrong body and that many find this unhelpful and cis normative. Their bodies are perfectly healthy and the idea they have to change them is driven by cis normative understandings of what men and women should be. It’s perfectly possible to have feelings that line up with what society labels as ‘woman’ but be in a male sexed body and such a person should absolutely be protected from coercion to change ether part.

Then address the risks. Unfortunately, our society is still heavily cis normative and, as a result of that, many trans people will develop dysphoria so severe that their best chance of a happy life is to make permanent changes to their body in order that society reads them as unambiguously the sex they would wish to be. This carries risk and loss of function, but if the dysphoria is severe enough it may be the best option. There are some interesting studies on people who identified as amputees who were resistant to therapy and were actually much happier once the offending limbs had been removed. Sad, but the best option for a minority.

This is how I broached the concept of caution when it comes to trans people and medical transition with my own DC. I describe myself as ‘pro trans, anti coercing people to make permanent physical changes to their bodies to fit society’s cis normative rules’. My DC are satisfied their mum is sufficiently woke, yet will also agree that medical transition should be a last resort.

Similar tactic with regards to sports, changing rooms, etc. Agree on common ground, use their language and calmly put across your concerns.

@CatherinaJTV

CatherinaJTV, your children are in for a hell of a shock!

They are all safely grown up into competent adults and, of course, have trans friends. Their opions of trans phobes and hyperbole about the "inherent dangers" of trans women would get them booted off this board. Good kids! I am proud

Do they think it's fair and acceptable for trans women who have gone through male puberty to compete against natal women in competitive sports in which strength and speed are of great advantage?

nauticant link was very full on.

That link was provided in the spirit of BloodinGutters's post above:

OP- you know your dd best, of course. Take the varying suggestions and go with what you think will work best with her/for you and her relationship. There is no right answer, just what you think is right for your relationship with her.

It's a follow-up to my comment about the trans umbrella. Anyone looking into this needs to understand that there are very different groups under the trans umbrella and not everyone is like the lovely trans person that a child might know in their school. Trans isn't one thing, trans people aren't a monolith. Maybe hard to get a child to engage with this but it's essential to the start of a proper understanding.

@nauticant

That link was provided in the spirit of BloodinGutters's post above:

OP- you know your dd best, of course. Take the varying suggestions and go with what you think will work best with her/for you and her relationship. There is no right answer, just what you think is right for your relationship with her.

It's a follow-up to my comment about the trans umbrella. Anyone looking into this needs to understand that there are very different groups under the trans umbrella and not everyone is like the lovely trans person that a child might know in their school. Trans isn't one thing, trans people aren't a monolith. Maybe hard to get a child to engage with this but it's essential to the start of a proper understanding.

I’m a little lost.

I was just meaning there’s all these posters telling the op what she should or shouldn’t do to address this with her dd. Some saying that it’s horrifying to use suggestions of trans criminals or similar.

But really none of us know what will work best for op with her dd. We can all suggest or put forward what worked with teens we know, only op can know if softly softly approach is best or if shock at trans criminals works and so on.