Page 2 | Help me explain to my teenager!

dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 09/11/2021 19:22

Elephantsparade · 09/11/2021 19:24

I think I would probably just ask her to think about one specific issue first. There are so many facets to this and some are more complicated and some things non gender critical people might be right about!

I think i'd look at something like why do we segregate rugby by sex and what are the risks of not doing that.

dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 09/11/2021 19:24

Point out that every human being who has ever been born has been grown inside a biological female's body. That is why transmen are women and transwomen are men but gender identity ideology like to put it the other way round.

GoodieMoomin · 09/11/2021 19:25

I would ask her questions to better understand what she believes and why.

What is a woman?
How do you define trans?
How can you distinguish a male people from male people who are trans or as she might frame it how can you distinguish men from transwomen?
Should any male who says "I'm trans" or "I'm a woman" be allowed to access female only spaces like changing rooms at the gym, women's sports teams and domestic violence refuges?
Should her gran be allowed to ask for a female carer if she needed a bed bath/mammogram/catheter?
What does "being born in the wrong body" mean? What is it that's born in the wrong body? A soul? A spirit?

Try to engage in a non-confrontational way. Probe her beliefs and get her to think about what she's actually saying.

Luckydog7 · 09/11/2021 19:26

Ask her about Karen white. Was kw...

A genuine transwoman who sexually assaulted women in the female estate, maybe the most male crime of all. Not very womanly.

Or 2. A predator who identified as a women to enter the female estate and terrorise women?

The answer actually doesn't matter that much because neither should be possible and how can we tell the difference between the two?

Winederlust · 09/11/2021 19:27

The only person who has made that jump, Catherina, is you.

PricklesTheHedgehog · 09/11/2021 19:30

OP, you're probably fighting a losing battle with your DD. Yours is an unpopular view at the moment.

The recent boom in transitioning will doubtless throw up all sorts of legal, social and medical issues in the coming years and it's my guess that the TWAW view might have to be tweaked.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 09/11/2021 19:31

Ask her who her least favourite male teacher is.
Then ask if he should be allowed to supervise the girls changing room for PE if he decided he was a woman.

nauticant · 09/11/2021 19:50

Your teenager has said that "people can be born in the wrong body and I am “not grasping this”."

Ask her whether she supports the work of Mermaids. Show her this tweet:

twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/status/1309192315467116547

and this:

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/do-you-still-use-the-phrase-born-in-the-wrong-body/

Point out that "born in the wrong body" can't be right while at the same time Mermaids are right. Then you can discuss with her that there is contradictory information out there and she needs to apply critical thinking to accept some things she's told and reject others.

nauticant · 09/11/2021 19:55

Also would it be possible to discuss with her the differences in the concepts of "same gender attraction" and "same sex attraction", and explore whether she thinks it is valid for someone to have a "same sex attraction" but not a "same gender attraction"?

BloodinGutters · 09/11/2021 19:55

@biggirlknickers

She thinks there is “no debate” and if a man decides he’s a woman then he wouldn’t go to all that trouble if it wasn’t genuine. He should be seen as a woman. His rights cannot be viewed as different from women’s rights. Even if he is anatomically male. Chromosomes have nothing to do with it, people can be born in the wrong body and I am “not grasping this”.

I need some very easy to digest, difficult to refute points to give her. I’m absolutely overwhelmed with work, health issues etc and I simply don’t have the brain space to give to this right now and I know you lot will help me out.

It doesn’t help that she is very feisty snd I am super placid.

I don’t want to shrink from this though - she needs to understand the other side. She has only been exposed to TRA beliefs so far, from her friends and on Tiktok etc.

Help me!

Show her pics of all the ‘male’ lesbians out there.

Don’t want to list names in case it gets deleted. But the ones like the tw who tried to cancel Dave Chappell. The ones who visibly don’t go to any trouble at all. There’s lots & lots of pics out there. Which include some tw who are in women’s prisons for sex offences against women and girls.

I’d be inclined to start on the first type pics then filter in the second and add what they are in prisons for after.

nauticant · 09/11/2021 20:00

Also, I posted this earlier on another thread:

It is an unpleasant series of tranwomen on TikTok complaining that lesbians have genital preferences.

Have a look and then decide whether you could watch it with her and let you know what she thinks.

LonginesPrime · 09/11/2021 20:09

She thinks there is “no debate” and if a man decides he’s a woman then he wouldn’t go to all that trouble if it wasn’t genuine.

A male person can hold a genuine belief that they are a woman as well as being angry or not taking no for an answer.

We have single-sex spaces for a reason, and that reason has never been that all men are predators.

The argument that transwomen genuinely believe they are women has nothing to do with whether they should be allowed into women's single-sex spaces.

Dinosaurhearmeroar · 09/11/2021 20:15

I would also ask her why the word women is being replaced with non men (Green Party) and pregnant people/ bodies with vaginas (the lancet) but it’s not happening to men? Also I would raise the point of whether trans men (women) would want to use men’s loos? I’m not sure they would due to the male on female violence etc. why can’t women have safe spaces? Away from the sex that kills 3 of them a week? (And 9 trans people have been killed in this country since 2009…)

CatherinaJTV · 09/11/2021 20:23

@Luckydog7

Ask her about Karen white. Was kw...

A genuine transwoman who sexually assaulted women in the female estate, maybe the most male crime of all. Not very womanly.

Or 2. A predator who identified as a women to enter the female estate and terrorise women?

The answer actually doesn't matter that much because neither should be possible and how can we tell the difference between the two?

absolutely do NOT tell her horror stories about trans criminals, because she is not ever going to talk to you again

CatherinaJTV · 09/11/2021 20:25

@Winederlust

The only person who has made that jump, Catherina, is you.

it actually isn't. I just reacted to the sexual violence in other ppl's heads. The OP asked for help, not to harden the fronts in the discussions.

nauticant · 09/11/2021 20:29

Following Dinosaurhearmeroar's post, it would be interesting for you to ask your DD how many trans people she thinks are killed in the UK each year and/or how their risk of being killed compares to other groups in the UK.

You can then go on to discuss this fact check from Channel 4:

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

PurpleOkapi · 09/11/2021 20:36

Tell her that bodies - everyone's bodies - aren't "right" or "wrong." They're just facts.

lazylinguist · 09/11/2021 20:41

She thinks there is “no debate” and if a man decides he’s a woman then he wouldn’t go to all that trouble if it wasn’t genuine. He should be seen as a woman. His rights cannot be viewed as different from women’s rights

Ask her if it would be ok for a white woman to decide that she's black. Or for an able-bodied person to decide they feel disabled. Or for a 50yo man to decide he's a 6yo boy. As long as they are genuine about it, that's fine, right? A man can't turn into a woman any more than he can turn into a 6yo. Should you talk to him as though he's a 6yo? Well.... if you want to. Should you be forced to by law? No. Should he be treated as a 6yo even though we know he allowed to go to primary school or excused paying taxes or obeying laws meant for adults? Should 6yo be expected to be friends with him? How genuinely he feels he's 6 is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is a) the truth and b) the safety of the actual 6yos.

titchy · 09/11/2021 20:59

absolutely do NOT tell her horror stories about trans criminals, because she is not ever going to talk to you again

With respect Catherine I doubt you have the tiniest of clues about how to parent and advise a teen girl. Regardless of what they believe, keeping them safe, and highlighting any of their thought processes which do the opposite, is by far the most important thing here.

MultiStorey · 09/11/2021 21:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Frenchfancy · 09/11/2021 21:13

I think @lazylinguist has got it about right. I don't think talking about genitals is particularly useful. That YouTube video wouldn't be the right place to start with teens and make make things worse.

CatherinaJTV · 09/11/2021 21:27

@titchy

absolutely do NOT tell her horror stories about trans criminals, because she is not ever going to talk to you again

With respect Catherine I doubt you have the tiniest of clues about how to parent and advise a teen girl. Regardless of what they believe, keeping them safe, and highlighting any of their thought processes which do the opposite, is by far the most important thing here.

what makes you think I don't have children?

titchy · 09/11/2021 22:06

what makes you think I don't have children?

Because you have absolutely no awareness of just how vulnerable teenage girls are.

BloodinGutters · 09/11/2021 22:10

@titchy

what makes you think I don't have children?

Because you have absolutely no awareness of just how vulnerable teenage girls are.

Sadly that is true of many parents.

Which is why schools have to have robust safeguards around how they address gender identity in schools.