Pronouns and grammar

[PamDenick]

Ok, need help here...
If a girl now identifies as ‘they’ and you are looking for her, what is the (supposed) correct way to do this?
Is it ‘Where is they?’

Longings, I suppose I have strict with the he/she as a way of challenging gender stereotypes and the assumption of male authority figures. For instance if my husband told me his the doctor had called I would always TRY to ask, Oh, what did he or she say? It has been my (v small and probably ineffectual) way of challenging the patriarchy... Often amazed how many people assume a doctor is male whereas I think I am right in assuming that the majority of GPs are female...

Perhaps it’s harder for me as my education pre-GCSE... but I always try to use he/she rather than they and so this is harder for older people...

So was mine, I'm 60 and pretty sure everyone has been using singular 'they' (for unknown sex individual) all my life.

I'm actually a huge fan of the singular "they" in certain contexts.

It's my pronoun of choice when recounting an anecdote involving unnamed individuals: everyone is a "they". It's my own way of challenging sexist assumptions, like whether the protagonist is expected to be gentle and caring, or good at parking, etc. I've noticed some people interpret the same story very differently depending on whether they're told the sex of the person or not. The singular "they" can neutralise bias, or at least nudge people into considering their own biases.

This is also considered good practice when writing technical prose such as user manuals, training manuals, etc. (or job descriptions, when describing the ideal candidate)
Other techniques involve alternating he and she pronouns, but it feels a bit "fake" to me: you're writing about a generic, gender-less user, not a middle aged man named Bob or a quirky young woman named Alice (these kind of fictional persona are much more likely to exhibit and/or elicit bias, one way or another)

It doesn’t look like posters are grasping is they = singular and are they = plural.

I sat through a first year uni class where our teacher spent the whole lesson ripping into us all for using they as ‘gender neutral’. As in the reader/they, within our essays. She drummed it firmly into us that the only grammatically correct unisex version was he/she or she/he.

I remember eye rolling so much at the time.

Second year I sat through another lesson where another tutor ripped into most of the class for the exact same mistake. Only with a heap of humiliation this time. Except a handful of us who had been in the first tutors class first year.

I was so so grateful I got it first year around.

I have an MA in English literature and language, although I’d hope it was a basic grammar lesson that should be taught in all degrees, if not long before. No adult should be talking like a toddler who hasn’t yet grasped the difference between singular/plural yet.

Yes, grammatically correct is he/she.
I suppose I’m concluding that not only do I have to deny my 40+ years of observing humans and instantly being given a myriad visual and auditory markers of if that human is male or female but now my use of language and grammar has been undermined and I’m not even sure what the new rules are...

@PamDenick

Longings, I suppose I have strict with the he/she as a way of challenging gender stereotypes and the assumption of male authority figures. For instance if my husband told me his the doctor had called I would always TRY to ask, Oh, what did he or she say? It has been my (v small and probably ineffectual) way of challenging the patriarchy... Often amazed how many people assume a doctor is male whereas I think I am right in assuming that the majority of GPs are female...

I try to stick to she or he or opted for she/he when referring to the reader in uni essays (after the above mentioned class). I generally try to opt for she exclusively when talking to my kids- oh that’s a fierce cuddly tiger, what’s she called? And similar. I also opt for female centric language wherever possible around them though, so we cross the road when the ‘green woman’ says to, and so on. Gets me a lot of funny looks but fuck it, I only have daughters and it’s made it obvious how every day language prioritises men always. So i try to counter it somewhat.

But "is they" isn't singular. "Is they" is grammatically incorrect. Singular they has been around for ages. I knew that it was used by Jane Austen, but a quick Google showed me that the first recorded use was in 1375. It might not have been considered suitable for formal academic writing, but it's been part of the English language for centuries.

When my girls were assessed for autism one of the salt criteria was still mixing up singular & plural much later than their peers. But now that won’t be something that can indicate autism because language and meaning has been obfuscated.

Interesting, I have children of both sexes (I refuse to say what ‘gender’ they are as this is not known to me as gender is not observable) and so my using he/she instead of they has been my tiny rebellion against the patriarchy but your flashing green woman BloodinGutters is far more impressive.

@DaisyWaldron

But "is they" isn't singular. "Is they" is grammatically incorrect. Singular they has been around for ages. I knew that it was used by Jane Austen, but a quick Google showed me that the first recorded use was in 1375. It might not have been considered suitable for formal academic writing, but it's been part of the English language for centuries.

That’s the point. Read the op. If she’s asking where a singular person is then it should be is before a he or she pronoun. Are would be used if looking for more than one person.

So either she uses the grammatically correct are they, which obfuscates meaning because it implies plural or she uses poor grammar.

We can have meaning or grammar, but not both.

@PamDenick

Interesting points , Daisy but I think I use language differently to you.

If my child told me their supply teacher was horrible I would respond with What did he or she do?

I think that’s unusual. I think most people use singular they when they don’t know. And it’s not new, it’s been used as a singular for centuries. It was used by Chaucer, Shakespeare and Austen.

I think it is a little unusual. But correct.

I know you are talking about in person op, but I think it’s even worse on paper.

I had downloaded a cheap lightweight kindle novel read, a young adult read that was supposed to be something I could switch off and get through while escaping to Starbucks for a couple of hours to get away from kid melt downs.

A group of just graduated teens off on an island adventure or something, had to stop reading because I couldn’t figure out which ‘they’ related to the non binary ‘they’ and which related to the group ‘they’, because the author hadn’t differentiated between them (I don’t think there’s a way to unless using sex based pronouns or the obnoxious zi/zir) and I tried to reread the first short chapter several times before giving up because it was meaningless. The author obviously knew which they was singular and which was plural, but there’s no way I could see from the context in the first chapter to grasp it, yet the bloody book had been published all the same, without challenge.

It felt very Orwellian.

@PamDenick

Interesting points , Daisy but I think I use language differently to you.

If my child told me their supply teacher was horrible I would respond with What did he or she do?

I think "what did they do?" is by far the most natural response in spoken English.

I can't imagine saying "what did she or he do"?

I do a reasonable amount of website and trade press writing. "He or she" has been discouraged for years. It's clunky and as I'm usually (like most people) trying to come in under the word count limit , has 3 words when one will do.

@ErrolTheDragon

Perhaps it’s harder for me as my education pre-GCSE... but I always try to use he/she rather than they and so this is harder for older people...

So was mine, I'm 60 and pretty sure everyone has been using singular 'they' (for unknown sex individual) all my life.

I'm 62. I've been using "they" for single person of unknown sex all my life in spoken English.

Thinking about it, it's possible I might use it even when sex is known. E.g someone in the office saying something like "what a pain Bob is to work with" and my responding something like "aren't they just"

Language teacher here. It has been pretty standard, accepted usage for a long time to say 'they' when referring to an unknown singular person. The usual third person plural is used in that situation, so 'They are' , not 'They is' (which would be completely wrong).

Use of 'they' for a known person in order to be gender neutral is fairly recent, I think, but it should still be used with the plural verb form, as that is the verb form which goes with that pronoun.

Ok, so I really appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this issue.

In summary, when trying to ascertain about a group of children I should ask Where are they? In Room 1? (for instance), but when I’m trying to distinguish that I’m looking for one child who has separated from the rest of the class I should ask but Where is he/she? He or she was asked to go to Room 2...
Language does not now differentiate between a singular child or a group of children, so unless we always use the child’s name (which might change on a regular basis) staff cannot distinguish if they are searching fo one child or many children.
it’s not easy to keep up.

@ChateauMargaux

Where is Kim? No grammar rules broken.

This. Also avoids agreeing to coercive control of your speech.

I mess this up all the time with ds’s non binary friends (thankfully not when they’re there). One is non binary but has a female name still and ds will tell me something about them and I’ll say something like what did she say I mean he I mean they. Trying too hard and mess it up. Anyway ds says they are.

It might be interesting to raise this, from a purely grammatical perspective, in Pedants' Corner.

I think that anyone who'd seriously say 'they is' might like to consider whether they should use 'thou art' for second person singular instead of the ambiguous 'you are'.

Well yes. Singular "you" is a modern and ambiguous usage. To be fair it is ambiguous enough that plural versions have developed, but I suspect the people who dislike singular "they" aren't keen on 'youse" or "y'all" either.

Language does not now differentiate between a singular child or a group of children, so unless we always use the child’s name (which might change on a regular basis) staff cannot distinguish if they are searching fo one child or many children.

That's not really true though, is it? The whole function of personal pronouns is to refer to a people or things who have already been mentioned, in order to avoid constantly repeating the noun. So you would only use 'they' in the context you describe if someone had already said "There's a child missing from my class" ("Oh - are you sure they're in school?") or "There's a bunch of kids missing from my class" ("Oh are you sure they're not on that school trip?

I am as GC as the next person on this board, but as a language teacher I think that arguing against 'they' on the grounds of grammar is a bit disingenuous, mostly incorrect and definitely not very productive.

Use of 'they' for a known person in order to be gender neutral is fairly recent, I think, but it should still be used with the plural verb form, as that is the verb form which goes with that pronoun.

On the other hand, if we’re changing the rules to allow “they” to apply to a known person, why not simultaneously decide to use “they is”? Presumably that would resolve the OP’s issue?

The whole function of personal pronouns is to refer to a people or things who have already been mentioned, in order to avoid constantly repeating the noun. So you would only use 'they' in the context you describe if someone had already said "There's a child missing from my class"

Yes.
There are hills to die on but honestly, this isn't one of them.

Yes, everyone who has a problem with singular they on the basis of 'logic' and 'grammar', I hope you're not using singular you. How illogical of you!