pronouns - can you help me understand their importance?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

My grasp of grammar is rudimentary - so this may be a fundamental misunderstanding...(and here comes the)...but...

if the purpose of a pronoun is to replace a person's name or descriptor in a conversation when the person is not there then why is it important?

The person to whom gender is important is absent and not part of the conversation, so, why are specific pronouns relevant? The person will never really know whether their preferred pronouns are used, respected, forgotten or dismissed.

I really have tried to understand, and have drawn a blank.

We all use pronouns to describe ourselves (I, me, mine etc.) and other people (he/his/him, she/hers, they/theirs etc.) These can be used to replace a person's name if you wish - 'Mary's phone' vs 'her phone', but they're often alternatives. They're useful if we don't know a person's name or gender - 'who left this umbrella? Have they left?"

We all have pronouns we prefer - very few of us like being called 'it', so to some extent pronouns are important to us all. But they're not the most important thing in the world.

Does that answer your question or were you asking something more specific?

Agreed.

But not only that, when I use pronouns I am referring to what matters to me and what I believe matters to society - biological sex and reality. So not only are trans extremists asking me to lie (that I pretend to see someone as a woman when I see a man), they're asking me to use pronouns based on gender when I've always used them for sex.

It is all about narcissism and relying on the validation you get from others

"Old school transsexuals" - full surgery - seem to take a different view - they seems to tend towards the view that trans women are men, and that whilst it is nice to have the validation of being referred to as "she", they're not relying on validation nor do they expect others to deny the reality that they are men if they don;t want to,

All part of the validation scam "Thou shalt talk about me as a woman despite my penis even when I am not with you".
To be fair, I will use someone's preferred pronouns when I talk about them behind their back (another way of saying "in the third person ") as long as it isn't a matter that affects my safety. Or if they have a GRC. Because then I am legally obliged to.

I'm trying to understand why it's important that I "choose" pronouns for work (not M+S).

I don't care. I'm not there. It is of no consequence to me about how two people discussing me or something that is mine describe me. I would be offended if they called me "it" - but, I wouldn't know. And, as they are nice people I'd probably not assume they were dehumanising me, but I might wonder whether they had become unwell.

I'm polite to people and use new their names. But, if I slip up and say "he" when I worked with that person before the transition then it feels harsh to have that regarded as a transgression or a hate incident.

We don't have pronouns on our badges like M+S are bringing in.

@bellinisurge

All part of the validation scam "Thou shalt talk about me as a woman despite my penis even when I am not with you". To be fair, I will use someone's preferred pronouns when I talk about them behind their back (another way of saying "in the third person ") as long as it isn't a matter that affects my safety. Or if they have a GRC. Because then I am legally obliged to.

Where in the law does it suggest that a GRC entitles someone to never being correctly sexed in terms of pronouns?

For that matter where in the law does it say that it is illegal to refer to any man as "he" or any woman as "she"?

I don't know that it states this is a legal requirement, but I do know that the Lib Dems say that it is transphobic to use previous names or refer to the person's biological sex.

So, it's all a bit messy. Women get arrested for tweeting ribbons so I'm feeling the pressure to understand why pronouns matter because I suspect that if I mess up at work it could be a problem.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I'm trying to understand why it's important that I "choose" pronouns for work (not M+S).

I don't care. I'm not there. It is of no consequence to me about how two people discussing me or something that is mine describe me. I would be offended if they called me "it" - but, I wouldn't know. And, as they are nice people I'd probably not assume they were dehumanising me, but I might wonder whether they had become unwell.

I'm polite to people and use new their names. But, if I slip up and say "he" when I worked with that person before the transition then it feels harsh to have that regarded as a transgression or a hate incident.

We don't have pronouns on our badges like M+S are bringing in.

Why would you slip up? Why wouldn't you be deliberately using the correct pronoun for SEX because sex is what matters to you, everyone else and society and because you have no obligation to validate others lies and delusions, especially when their lies and delusions are deliberately used to further a political agenda seeking to dismantle our rights?

I am really unsure how I will deal with things in future, if and when it comes up... but my gut feel is that in order to avoid malicious police reporting and my own political position I will always make a point of avoiding pronouns unless they are honest and sex based, however clumsy it forces my language to be. I would be minded to use preferred gender for anyone who is able to have a sensible conversation and confirm that they know changing sex is impossible and that I am doing it as a courtesy only.

It is about attempting to control the way you think so that you don't dare to question whether transition actually changes your sex. I have seen trans activists complain that although a person used the required terms they clearly didn't really believe it. Anyone who questions even slightly is seen as a threat to the ideology.
The reason it matters is to propagate and normalise the ideology that sex is a matter of choice and not biology.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I don't know that it states this is a legal requirement, but I do know that the Lib Dems say that it is transphobic to use previous names or refer to the person's biological sex.

So, it's all a bit messy. Women get arrested for tweeting ribbons so I'm feeling the pressure to understand why pronouns matter because I suspect that if I mess up at work it could be a problem.

Sorry - I don't mean to encourage you to allow yourself to be fired from your job!

I think that it is misogynistic and homophobic to claim that sex is irrelevant and that gender identity is where rights should lie... if standing up to misogyny and homophobia automatically makes someone a transphobe then I'd better wear the badge with pride and I am disgusted by anyone who isn't transphobic.

If however you believe that trans people should have exactly the same rights as all humans have (no discrimination for being trans) and the same rights as all of their particular sex have (no discrimination for their sex), AND the right to campaign for and have third spaces for everyone who is uncomfortable in the single sex provision designed for them then I don't think you can be called transphobic.

I'm sadly not surprised that this thread has turned into another anti-trans pile on.

Look, no one is telling you that you must respect another person's prefered pronouns. There is no law against it and it doesn't automatically make you a transphobe for using pronouns for someone which they don't prefer.

Pronouns, like many other things, are social constructs. I could call every women I meet 'he' and every man 'she' if I wanted (regardless of trans identity) but to do that - especially if I knew that it upset someone, is basically being a bit obtuse.

Why does every thread on here have to turn into an anti-trans attack line?

It’s a political statement. It’s saying we believe people with a penis can be a she or a they or a he. Or ppl with a vagina can be a she, he or they.
A tiny tiny minority will require different badges with different pronouns depending on how they feel on that day.
And this is where we are…

I do agree with you, Laetitia.

And, actually, what I tend to do is over use the person's new name. "Was "Strawberry Shortcake" in the office today? I didn't see "Strawberry Shortcake's" car in the car park and "Strawberry Shortcake" hasn't replied to my message but "Strawberry Shortcake" and I need to meet the deadline so if you do see "Strawberry Shortcake" can you let "Strawberry Shortcake" that I am looking for "Strawberry Shortcake"?"

It's quite time consuming.

Hypatia that's unfair - if you think there is anything anti-trans in what I have written then you should report it.

It is not anti-trans to try and understand something. I don't "get it". I genuinely don't understand several things about trans issues, despite having multiple training sessions, many conversations and friends and family who belong to the trans community.

You do, however, demonstrate rather neatly the root of my worry - if I get it wrong I get accused of being anti-trans, but the "rules" are unclear. So, either way I'm buggered. and we both know that the law is not the important bit when it come to being accused of transphobia. It's an unholy mess and I would like to use my energies to get on with my job rather than try and second guess vague and brand new social conventions.

I think in New York "misgendering" (including not using made up pronouns like "ze/zir") is a crime worthy of a fine up to $250,000.

It's important to keep talking about the ethics behind compelled speech so laws like that or worse, aren't introduced here.

Pronouns are in the eye of the beholder. I reject being forced to call a man with a penis "she".

And, you're wrong, Hypaetia. Many definitions of transphobia do say that not using the person's preferred pronouns is an issue.

It certainly feels like a big issue to me.

^ New York and Canada.

I am amused at those all over social media (i.e. not just on this thread) trying to pretend that this is all just a bit of harmless fun which doesn't really matter. Once pronoun statements are successfully normalised the system will be used to harass anyone who does not comply out of a job. It is the equivalent of the badges and lanyards but more subtle. Of course we will take a softly softly approach at the beginning - wouldn't want to alarm anyone would we.

@Hypatia415

I'm sadly not surprised that this thread has turned into another anti-trans pile on.

Look, no one is telling you that you must respect another person's prefered pronouns. There is no law against it and it doesn't automatically make you a transphobe for using pronouns for someone which they don't prefer.

Pronouns, like many other things, are social constructs. I could call every women I meet 'he' and every man 'she' if I wanted (regardless of trans identity) but to do that - especially if I knew that it upset someone, is basically being a bit obtuse.

Why does every thread on here have to turn into an anti-trans attack line?

Why is it not surprising? Is it because all trans-activist work is a massive anti-women and anti-gay/lesbian pile-on, so you assume that when someone counters a political position that is lying to children that sex change is possible and trying to steal women's rights then it must be anti-trans?

"Why does every thread on here have to turn into an anti-trans attack line?"

Because the current trans activist position is so nasty, bigoted, dishonest, dangerous, stupid, incoherent, etc etc. It also refuses to debate because it has no arguments, and if you won't debate someone they are more likely to just shout at you instead.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I do agree with you, Laetitia.

And, actually, what I tend to do is over use the person's new name. "Was "Strawberry Shortcake" in the office today? I didn't see "Strawberry Shortcake's" car in the car park and "Strawberry Shortcake" hasn't replied to my message but "Strawberry Shortcake" and I need to meet the deadline so if you do see "Strawberry Shortcake" can you let "Strawberry Shortcake" that I am looking for "Strawberry Shortcake"?"

It's quite time consuming.

Time consuming and absolutely necessary. Not least as you could find yourself using the same pronoun three times in a sentence and yet due to their gender fluidity you actually misgendered them once.

I would only toe the line on emails or anything that's recorded. In my own speech I'll say anything I want.

@Hypatia415

I'm sadly not surprised that this thread has turned into another anti-trans pile on.

Look, no one is telling you that you must respect another person's prefered pronouns. There is no law against it and it doesn't automatically make you a transphobe for using pronouns for someone which they don't prefer.

Pronouns, like many other things, are social constructs. I could call every women I meet 'he' and every man 'she' if I wanted (regardless of trans identity) but to do that - especially if I knew that it upset someone, is basically being a bit obtuse.

Why does every thread on here have to turn into an anti-trans attack line?

So why do so many trans activists seek to force so many things on women and others when they know that it upsets the vast majority?

Also, Hypaetia - you haven't answered my question.

Why do pronouns matter when the person will not be there to hear them?

Lol Letitia

Yes, the best response to someone who has announced their pronouns is "I don't need to know your pronouns because I don't use 3rd person pronouns". The only downside to that is then actually having to avoid 3rd person pronouns. It can be done however!

They are important because forcing others to refer to you as the opposite sex, euphemistically referred to as 'always using female pronouns' in the GRPB Act, is used as to count as 'living as a woman' and therefore a woman. Therefore by using female pronouns to refer to a transwoman you are directly supporting them undermining the word 'woman' as reference to adult human females.

I can see why, especially in the workplace, people would use a pronoun to match gender rather than sex for a quiet life. But as a rule, I don't see why compelling others to refer to you as 'she' when you are male is any more acceptable than compelling others to join in your daily prayers.

I don't know when or how or why pronouns became anything other than based on sex.