pronouns - can you help me understand their importance?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

My grasp of grammar is rudimentary - so this may be a fundamental misunderstanding...(and here comes the)...but...

if the purpose of a pronoun is to replace a person's name or descriptor in a conversation when the person is not there then why is it important?

The person to whom gender is important is absent and not part of the conversation, so, why are specific pronouns relevant? The person will never really know whether their preferred pronouns are used, respected, forgotten or dismissed.

I really have tried to understand, and have drawn a blank.

A pronoun badge is NOT neutral. Wearing a pronouns badge is a declaration that YOU HAVE A GENDER IDENTITY and believe in the philosophical/religious/political belief of gender ideology. Ordinary trans people don’t demand this. I use pronouns for trans colleagues and friends with no problems as they dress and present in accordance with their gender identity.

Declaring Pronouns is an INSTRUCTION from extreme lobby groups.

A pronouns badge signals a controversial view of sex and gender with the AIM:

• That Self -ID become law
• That gender identity replace sex in law
• That the whole of Society be compelled to declare a gender identity (it’s happening in public body data already)
• That children are taught about and encouraged to choose a ‘gender identity’ (a bigger market base for medicalisation - kerching American Pharma)
• That Lesbians who state they are same-sex attracted only, are as bad as racists
• That lesbian female only spaces be shut down - only Unisex allowed.
• That Women in prison should be locked up with rapists to validate the rapists
• Women sports should be mixed sex, therefore destroying women’s sports
• That rapists and child sexual abusers be referred to as ‘she/her’ in the court and news if they want it
• That males with a penis can use communal dressing rooms, showers, spas where women and children are naked or partially naked.

If staff disagree with gender lobby aims and are compelled to wear a pronoun badge it could constitute “direct discrimination on grounds of philosophical belief,” and therefore would breach equality legislation

Look, no one is telling you that you must respect another person's prefered pronouns.

How disingenuous can you possibly be?

That’s exactly what TRAs are saying.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/?mc_cid=45ac33bfc1&mc_eid=8ae636995a

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Also, Hypaetia - you haven't answered my question.

Why do pronouns matter when the person will not be there to hear them?

They can't give you a logical answer because there isn't one. 'The emperor has no clothes' and unlike the little boy, people are too scared to point it out. The employers are doing the pronouns stuff for Stonewall Index points. When will there be an enquiry into this lobbying scandal across government, companies and institutions?

From the sex matters link:
Do I have to ‘state my pronouns’ at work?
'No. There haven’t been any legal cases on this yet but organisations encouraging their employees to announce their pronouns are imposing the manifestation of a belief on them and can put people who don’t share the belief in gender-identity ideology at a disadvantage. It could even amount to indirect discrimination.

You might have any number of reasons for rejecting a call to ‘state your pronouns’. These may be rooted in your religious beliefs, philosophical beliefs (including feminist convictions), sexual orientation, or simply discomfort at being required to participate in a ritual based on a belief you don’t share. All of these are protected characteristics under the Equality Act.

People who consider themselves transgender but who haven’t taken steps to transition and are not ‘out’ can also find being asked for their pronouns upsetting.'

[quote dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby]sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/?mc_cid=45ac33bfc1&mc_eid=8ae636995a[/quote]
That’s fab, thank you

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

if the purpose of a pronoun is to replace a person's name or descriptor in a conversation when the person is not there then why is it important?

Speaking just for myself, it doesn’t matter to me at all. I have an unusual name, but everyone in Britain would know it’s female. I work in an international company and regularly email people in India, Vietnam, Poland, literally anywhere. I have no idea how my name reads to, say, a Vietnamese person, whether it sounds feminine or masculine. And I don’t care if they say to each other “I’ve just an email from him”. I cannot explain how much I do not care about this. Equally I sometimes receive emails where I don’t know if the name is male or female (either because it’s foreign or because it’s something neutral like Alex). This has never caused an issue.
If I’m aware of someone’s pronouns, I’ll use them. But for talking about me, I don’t care.

@Gncq

I think in New York "misgendering" (including not using made up pronouns like "ze/zir") is a crime worthy of a fine up to $250,000.

It's important to keep talking about the ethics behind compelled speech so laws like that or worse, aren't introduced here.

Pronouns are in the eye of the beholder. I reject being forced to call a man with a penis "she".

Gosh, rather like a theocratic state. Like those countries that fine/imprison you for blasphemy. or refusing to wear clothes they say are prescribed in ideological/religious tenets.

Hello to the dark ages.

@Hypatia415

I'm sadly not surprised that this thread has turned into another anti-trans pile on.

Look, no one is telling you that you must respect another person's prefered pronouns. There is no law against it and it doesn't automatically make you a transphobe for using pronouns for someone which they don't prefer.

Pronouns, like many other things, are social constructs. I could call every women I meet 'he' and every man 'she' if I wanted (regardless of trans identity) but to do that - especially if I knew that it upset someone, is basically being a bit obtuse.

Why does every thread on here have to turn into an anti-trans attack line?

Did you know that the singer, Halsey has requested she/they pronouns and complained after a magazine did a feature on Halsey in which the writer only used she/her/hers?

extract

Halsey has announced she will no longer do press after Allure magazine failed to use their correct pronouns in its August cover story and promoted the interview by taking quotes out of context. [Bold mine. Notice how the writer switches fromshe, totheir, in the same sentence.]

In a series of tweets early Wednesday morning, the 26-year-old called out the magazine directly and demanded that they "do fucking better."

"First your writer made a focal point in my cover story my pronouns and you guys deliberately disrespected them by not using them in the article," Halsey wrote.

The musician announced in March that they would be using she/they pronouns going forward, later explaining that while they are happy for people to use either, "the inclusion of 'they,' in addition to 'she,' feels most authentic to me." [bold mine]

"If you know me at all you know what it means to me to express this outwardly," she wrote in an Instagram story at the time.

Despite the fact that Allure's cover story explicitly mentioned Halsey's use of she/they pronouns — and quoted them as saying pronoun preferences are "meant for you to help better understand yourself" — the magazine exclusively used she/her pronouns throughout the profile. It has since been edited to include both she and they pronouns.

While preferences differ for each person, generally when people use multiple pronouns, it is best to use them interchangeably unless they specify otherwise. [bold mine]

Continueshere www.buzzfeednews.com/article/eleanorbate/halsey-called-out-allure-no-more-press

Do you think this is a reasonable request? What do you think of how the Buzzfeed writer alternates she/her and they/them? Are you willing to follow a similar style guide once it reaches your sector?

Good God Purgatory! That singer sounds like a member of dolores umbridge's inquisitorial squad

Yes their purpose is to make the user look / sound like a complete and utter twat. Hope that's cleared things up for you

This little thread went unnoticed but it's a good example of how immature children are using pronouns as a tool to bully and silence other children:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4396154-Changing-pronouns-names-in-secondary-schools

Not surprising as it's immature young people who have found a tool that they can use to intimidate others but it's another example of the unintended consequences of these ridiculous demands.

Stating that your pronouns express your gender identity rather then your sex feels to me like the equivalent of changing your name to, 'I love Boris Johnson' or 'Bring back hanging'. I'm going to take a guess that most people would consider that to be provocative behaviour, and yet expecting your colleagues to endorse your belief in gender identity is somehow viewed as progressive.

I write minutes and these are documents that can be used in court so I have to be very careful.
I regularly use people's pronouns in minutes even though I might use their name in person. So its an instance where I sort of use pronouns in their absence but they get to see them.

@Floisme

Stating that your pronouns express your gender identity rather then your sex feels to me like the equivalent of changing your name to, 'I love Boris Johnson' or 'Bring back hanging'. I'm going to take a guess that most people would consider that to be provocative behaviour, and yet expecting your colleagues to endorse your belief in gender identity is somehow viewed as progressive.

That is incredibly well put.

Hypatia415
"Pronouns, like many other things, are social constructs" -
They aren't social constructs though, they are part of someone's language, they mean something, they have a meaning based in reality.

"I don't know that it states this is a legal requirement, but I do know that the Lib Dems say that it is transphobic to use previous names or refer to the person's biological sex."

Unless the LibDems are your employer (or you're a member, perhaps) what difference does it make what they say, they're not in power.

Look, no one is telling you that you must respect another person's prefered pronouns.

Not only are they saying that, but they also often say that it's not acceptable to avoid using pronouns at all because you don't agree with wrong sex pronouns but don't want to cause conflict, because that's transphobic. We all know this statement of yours isn't true, Hypatia.

Women in prison are punished with extra time on their sentences for using pronouns and nouns correctly based on sex. Male inmates in women's prisons are wielding this as power over prisoners and staff in order to do things no other men are allowed to, including.

The incredibly violent attempted knife murderer and fell running cheat L. Jeska/Michael Jameson who has taken the position of Equalities Peer Support Worker at HMP Foston Hall women's prison.

Knife murderer and domestic abuser Alan Baker/S. Eastwood who is showering at the same time as the women prisoners and committing indecent exposure of his intact genitalia against them. He entered a gym competition to beat the women and win the prize with staff and prisoners not being allowed to speak the truth.

Martin Printing/J. Winfield who raped two girls and has been making sexual advances on women in prison. Even the anonymous source speaking out against his behaviour in the women's prison said 'her penis'.

kpssinfo.org/males-in-womens-prisons/

It's hypocritical to change your normal usage of pronouns for men you like but not men you think are awful. We all call female murderers she because pronouns just refer to sex, not if we approve of her actions. I don't think the use of names instead of pronouns can be punished at work or in social circles so that is what I do if grammatically correct language would get me in trouble.

Completely agree, Bitmuch.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Imagine a staff meeting, line manager says "I was talking to Sarah about this last week" (nods towards Sarah) "and she made the really good point that....."

I would be really upset if anyone repeatedly and deliberately referred to me as "him". I understand why pronouns matter to trans people. But I also understand why they raise so many difficult questions as well.

It's not as straightforward as "just be kind", but it's also not as straightforward as "all trans people are ridiculous attention seekers making such a big fuss about such a tiny thing"

Actually... are pronouns about pronouns at at all? Pronouns is short for "I demand that you deny biological reality and demand that you treat me as a woman and grant me access to all of the few small women's privileges that exist - the toilets and the all-women shortlists."

deny biological reality in your interactions with me, is what I meant

@ViceLikeBlip

I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Imagine a staff meeting, line manager says "I was talking to Sarah about this last week" (nods towards Sarah) "and she made the really good point that....."

I would be really upset if anyone repeatedly and deliberately referred to me as "him". I understand why pronouns matter to trans people. But I also understand why they raise so many difficult questions as well.

It's not as straightforward as "just be kind", but it's also not as straightforward as "all trans people are ridiculous attention seekers making such a big fuss about such a tiny thing"

These hypothetical made up scenarios that exist only in gender mythology always wind me up for some reason.