What proportion of male lesbians is too high?

[TeamRex]

I saw this posted on Twitter yesterday. Many responses and quote tweets are saying "this is made up".

The thing is, we all know that any "lesbian" event now attracts men who say they are lesbians. So no-one would be surprised at say 1 out of 10 lesbians at.an event being male. It would be transphobic to complain.

But a claim of 9 out of 10 is too high, it obviously must be made up, according to responses. So even for supporters of trans ideology there is a level which is too high to maintain the idea that a space is lesbian.

So, now we know there's a "too high" proportion to maintain the pretence of a lesbian space, where that's only one lesbian, I was wondering what's the acceptable cutoff? 30%, 50%?

0%

I’ve been to quite a few lesbian events in the last month or so, there didn’t seem to be any straight men there. Although our gay spaces are being used more by straight people in a way that they weren’t years ago. I have mixed feelings about that. Don’t mind when someone brings their best mate and her boyfriend along, but find it highly irritating when large grps of straight girls come in
ESP the hen dos.

Male lesbian doesn’t exists, it’s a bad one liner from some of those ‘bro’ films that were all the rage 10-15 years ago…

@MissingColorado

Male lesbians. I can’t believe we even have to discuss it being a thing. My friend was showing me tiktok live a few days ago and as she scrolled through there were 3 ‘male lesbians’, all separate accounts getting quite aggressive with people asking questions. Lots of people calling the ones asking questions, transphobic. It’s madness but absolutely frightening.

This is why prompted me to open this thread. A 'male lesbian' on TikTok when queried about the toilets they used become really aggressive and nasty, backed by all their followers ... it was surreal!

This TikToker is 6'4" and was a male builder up until June this year - you couldn't make it up!

They were ranting about the 'law' and how anyone who identifies as a female can use space - is this true?

They were ranting about the 'law' and how anyone who identifies as a female can use space - is this true?

No. There's no law that states where sex is a factor, self-id is enough to claim to be female.

One of the problems is that there are hardly any spaces that are legally segregated by sex. Another problem is that organisations have misinterpreted the law (or paid Stonewall to misinterpret it for them) so that self-identifying "women" cannot be challenged. Another problem still is that post 2004 a gender recognition certificate as proof of legally "changed sex" exists, but it's not legal to ask to see it!

But according to the actual law there is an exemption under the Equalities Act so spaces that need to be single sex can remain so if there is a justifiable reason. Again another problem with this is that those spaces are then open to legal challenge from transactivists, so many choose not to enforce the existing exemptions. Really, a few test cases would help, where an individual or activist group sue because of being excluded but their case is found to have no merit, but seeing as the judiciary have had secret training by transactivist groups and we don't know what they were "taught", the outcome could be anything. Compare Maya Forstater's initial judgement with the appeal judgment, for example.

Finally AFAIK there's no actual law against using the opposite sex's toilets; there are laws that state employers have to provide separate toilets (which are ignored) and laws that state schools have to have separate toilets (which are also ignored) and various laws about causing fear and distress or breaches of public order (but the police have also been trained by transactivists in their interpretation of what they'd like the law to say, not what it actually says). And trans people are a category of hate crime/non crime hate incident victim, but women are not.

Clear as mud, right?

@logsonlogsoff

I’ve been to quite a few lesbian events in the last month or so, there didn’t seem to be any straight men there. Although our gay spaces are being used more by straight people in a way that they weren’t years ago. I have mixed feelings about that. Don’t mind when someone brings their best mate and her boyfriend along, but find it highly irritating when large grps of straight girls come in ESP the hen dos.

I wonder what the SIA train about this nowadays? Bouncers used to exclude groups of straight people from gay clubs, perhaps now the door supervisor staff are all licensed by a regulatory authority, they're less likely to do so, if it means someone could complain and lose them their SIA card (and therefore their livelihood)?

Lesbians seem to be the most at-risk and discriminated group around at the moment. almost being definitioned out of existence. If you are a lesbian you're likely to be finding your social groups invaded, your online dating fora overloaded with pushy penis-havers and everyone telling you you're transphobic, bigoted and what-all just to say who you are and what you like.

I can remember when "lesbian trapped in a man's body" was just a sexist joke made by unreconstructed men.

I should think many lesbians are going underground organising social events and so forth, keeping off the radar. I certainly would be. I haven't asked any my lesbian friends because they're all practically incandescent about what's going on and we have other, pleasanter, things to talk about!

More than zero is too high. That is a straight man

It’s estimated that 2-3% of men experience arousal at the thought of themselves as a woman, while only 1-2% of women say they are lesbian.

Presumably not all the men who have that sexual orientation claim they are women, but the potential for them to outnumber lesbians is high, particularly if lesbians begin to self-exclude.

And the claims that it couldn’t possibly happen are very revealing. If it was perfectly acceptable, then it wouldn’t matter at all. I think the only way people justify this to themselves is by telling themselves that it doesn’t really affect women much, so therefore it’s fine. That falls down entirely when you have to admit to yourself that women are actually being significantly affected. So they don’t admit it, because their cognitive dissonance would become impossible to ignore.

AnyOldPrion

It’s estimated that 2-3% of men experience arousal at the thought of themselves as a woman

Blimey, is it really that high? Do you remember the source of that stat?

Precise numbers don't matter, the important point is that it's two comparably-sized minorities colliding - something that seems to be counter-intuitive for many to reason about. (I would have thought the percentage of lesbians was a bit higher myself).

Did a bit of searching, and found this 2011 paper by Anne Lawrence:

The concept of autogynephilia defines a typology of MtF transsexualism and offers a theory of motivation for one type of MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia resembles a sexual orientation in that it involves elements of idealization and attachment as well as erotic desire. Nearly 3% of men in Western countries may experience autogynephilia; its most severe manifestation, MtF transsexualism, is rare but increasing in prevalence. Some theorists and clinicians reject the transsexual typology and theory of motivation derived from autogynephilia; their objections suggest a need for additional research.

I only have the abstract though, so I don't know how that figure was generated.

The percentage of that "nearly 3%" actually going on to act on it in public is clearly going to have gone up recently.

Here's Blanchard on that in 2019:

Question: "Has the prevalence of autogynephilia increased in recent decades, or are autogynephiles simply more likely to transition than they once were?"

I very much doubt that the prevalence of autogynephilia per se, or the prevalence of autogynephilic gender dysphoria, has increased. I think that what has changed is the proportion of autogynephilic trans who have “come out” to their families, friends, and employers, not the total number of autogynephilic trans. Forty years ago, an autogynephile’s decision to transition to the female role often had negative consequences in the personal and employment spheres. Now that decision is as likely to get them praised for courage as it is to get them criticized for selfishness and irresponsibility.

The change in consequences for the androphilic trans has been much less. They tend to be conspicuously feminine (or effeminate) in manner, even when they are trying to “butch it up,” and this was as true 40 years ago as it is now. The androphilic trans had less social status to lose by transitioning then, and that is also true now.

When I looked at the relative numbers of autogynephilic and androphilic gender-dysphoric males back in 1987, the autogynephilic cases were already a majority, approaching 60 percent. The proportion had reached 75 percent by 2010, and it might be even higher now.

I don’t know of any evidence of significant populations of autogynephilic MTF trans in any non-Western countries. That doesn’t mean such individuals don’t exist. It could simply mean that, for non-homosexual males, the social cost of “coming out” as trans is much higher in non-Western cultures.

Current figures have the "trans" population being 1% or so? Not sure how that's broken down male vs female. If that number has gone up recently for males, it's going to largely be that 3% coming out as "women" more, and I think there's still a lot of scope for that to increase further, as it's still a minority of that 3%.

None is the only answer as men cannot be lesbians.

@NecessaryScene

Precise numbers don't matter, the important point is that it's two comparably-sized minorities colliding - something that seems to be counter-intuitive for many to reason about. (I would have thought the percentage of lesbians was a bit higher myself).

Did a bit of searching, and found this 2011 paper by Anne Lawrence:

The concept of autogynephilia defines a typology of MtF transsexualism and offers a theory of motivation for one type of MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia resembles a sexual orientation in that it involves elements of idealization and attachment as well as erotic desire. Nearly 3% of men in Western countries may experience autogynephilia; its most severe manifestation, MtF transsexualism, is rare but increasing in prevalence. Some theorists and clinicians reject the transsexual typology and theory of motivation derived from autogynephilia; their objections suggest a need for additional research.

I only have the abstract though, so I don't know how that figure was generated.

The percentage of that "nearly 3%" actually going on to act on it in public is clearly going to have gone up recently.

Here's Blanchard on that in 2019:

Question: "Has the prevalence of autogynephilia increased in recent decades, or are autogynephiles simply more likely to transition than they once were?"

I very much doubt that the prevalence of autogynephilia per se, or the prevalence of autogynephilic gender dysphoria, has increased. I think that what has changed is the proportion of autogynephilic trans who have “come out” to their families, friends, and employers, not the total number of autogynephilic trans. Forty years ago, an autogynephile’s decision to transition to the female role often had negative consequences in the personal and employment spheres. Now that decision is as likely to get them praised for courage as it is to get them criticized for selfishness and irresponsibility.

The change in consequences for the androphilic trans has been much less. They tend to be conspicuously feminine (or effeminate) in manner, even when they are trying to “butch it up,” and this was as true 40 years ago as it is now. The androphilic trans had less social status to lose by transitioning then, and that is also true now.

When I looked at the relative numbers of autogynephilic and androphilic gender-dysphoric males back in 1987, the autogynephilic cases were already a majority, approaching 60 percent. The proportion had reached 75 percent by 2010, and it might be even higher now.

I don’t know of any evidence of significant populations of autogynephilic MTF trans in any non-Western countries. That doesn’t mean such individuals don’t exist. It could simply mean that, for non-homosexual males, the social cost of “coming out” as trans is much higher in non-Western cultures.

Current figures have the "trans" population being 1% or so? Not sure how that's broken down male vs female. If that number has gone up recently for males, it's going to largely be that 3% coming out as "women" more, and I think there's still a lot of scope for that to increase further, as it's still a minority of that 3%.

Thanks for the info Necessary.

It's really quite ludicrous that most people have no idea about autogynephilia.

Presumably not all the men who have that sexual orientation claim they are women, but the potential for them to outnumber lesbians is high, particularly if lesbians begin to self-exclude.

Even if 1 or 2% of women are lesbian, they're not all out, they're not all able to socialise (money, caring responsibilities, geographical isolation, etc) whereas men have more resources and possibly more motivation to attend events for the validation.
So I think it's perfectly possible that at certain events or even in certain online spaces (hello reddit) men who call themselves lesbians will physically outnumber lesbians.

Random thought: If a trans woman who finds women attractive is still heterosexual then it questions why Stonewall represents trans people as a group. In my mind Stonewall represents those whose sexuality differs from heterosexual. Trans people have an identity difference and not necessarily a sexuality difference.

@Ezydoesit

Random thought: If a trans woman who finds women attractive is still heterosexual then it questions why Stonewall represents trans people as a group. In my mind Stonewall represents those whose sexuality differs from heterosexual. Trans people have an identity difference and not necessarily a sexuality difference.

Because they no longer believe in homosexuality. They believe that a lesbian can be a male in a relationship with a female. Or two males in a relationship with each other.

So to them, they are representing 'lesbians', because a lesbian is any sex, in a relationship with any sex. As long as they say they are, then they are.

Likewise, a gay man can be a female in a relationship with another female.

It's all based on what you say out loud, and not what your actual sex is.

Why have mumsnet delated my comment? Lesbians are homosexual women who are attracted to other women, that’s what same sex attraction is.