What proportion of male lesbians is too high?

[TeamRex]

I saw this posted on Twitter yesterday. Many responses and quote tweets are saying "this is made up".

The thing is, we all know that any "lesbian" event now attracts men who say they are lesbians. So no-one would be surprised at say 1 out of 10 lesbians at.an event being male. It would be transphobic to complain.

But a claim of 9 out of 10 is too high, it obviously must be made up, according to responses. So even for supporters of trans ideology there is a level which is too high to maintain the idea that a space is lesbian.

So, now we know there's a "too high" proportion to maintain the pretence of a lesbian space, where that's only one lesbian, I was wondering what's the acceptable cutoff? 30%, 50%?

@Pigeontown

This is a stats/numbers issue really. Boating holiday- so maybe 10 places or less (sailing?) then 9 being Trans except the lesbian woman commenting is not outside the realms of possibility. (And perhaps the activity is only appealing to a certain type. Maybe you need sailing qualifications/experience. Sailing is dominated by men and boys anyway).

So although really upsetting and frustrating for the boating woman I can see how this can be true. But stats misleading.

I wouldn't book on a lesbian only trip and never have. Because I like variety of people. I am in a UK based hobby group that has trips away and haven't been yet for this reason. And being stuck with a small group can be awful anyway as potential to dislike them all could be high (for other reasons) or they may dislike you. You always need an escape route!

It's not clear when this holiday happened. If it was recently I'm a little sceptical that at the moment anyone would book a holiday where they would be with 9 other strangers in a confined space for several days? weeks? with limited scope for avoiding them/ getting away.

Most of the holiday tour groups have started up again so I think it's perfectly possible that group sailing holidays are happening.

People are pretty much behaving like it's back to normal near me, I know you are in Scotland Kimiko, aren't you, so maybe it's different there?

I wonder how many Transwomen are in sexual relationships with other Transwomen ? Genuine question.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

People are pretty much behaving like it's back to normal near me, I know you are in Scotland Kimiko, aren't you, so maybe it's different there?

Holiday flights and cruises are operating- that’s not quite the same as a boat which can only accommodate 10 passengers.

There are plenty of boating holidays being advertised but those are for direct booking of the boat- not the holiday. I see small group cruises being advertised for 2022.

I'm still sceptical that someone would be comfortable at being cooped up in a small space with 9 strangers for an extended period.

A 'boating holiday' doesn't have to be sailing - it could be on a cruiser, say on the Norfolk Broads, or a narrowboat on the canals. Some of them have 10 or 12 berths.

These kinds of boats have been available for hire this year. Say someone hired one and advertised a group holiday on it, similar to the holidays in lodges and bunkhouses for lesbian and bi women referenced on another thread in September this year.

It could easily happen.

Are we back to trying to discredit the ‘poster’ or the ‘event’ rather than addressing the topic of the post again?

I'm sure there is a name for men who are aroused by the thought of themselves as women, and probably given the male fascination with lesbianism, it makes it even more attractive if the women they think themselves to be is a lesbian.

I wonder what that name is? I just can't seem to remember it......

Well denying it happened means they know it looks bad, so there's that.

That name for men who are aroused by the thought of themselves as a woman....well, I mentioned it on Mumsnet and got told off. I don't really understand why as it is a valid psychiatric description. We are allowed to mention words like anorexia or sexual philias so why not this one? It is not a term of abuse. DH said that when he learned this one word that the whole thing fell into place for him.

Jesus fucking christ.

The Tweet is supposed to show lesbian spaces are being taken over by trans women - 90% here. The responses don't believe 90% of the people who turned up were trans. There's no need to argue they trans participants are women.

If they thought there was no issue why not comment "so what?" Why try to deny it happened? Is it because they agree it is bad for a lesbian space to be taken over by males?

This will solve itself in no time. The more lesbian-onlybevents that are inclusive to transwomen, the more transwomen will pile in, the more lesbians will read the fine print and stay away in droves.

Interestingly, if an event winds up being 90% - 100% transwomen, they won't be able to complain about it will they, because TWAW and penises are female organs, after all.

@catsareme14

I wonder how many Transwomen are in sexual relationships with other Transwomen ? Genuine question.

We'll, we'll probably never know, but I speculate that the number is vanishingly small, cats. That would be because validation is sought from acceptance by women, and unless someone really believes TW actually AW, another transwoman just won't provide that level of validation.

If one transwoman rejects another as a potential partner, that's the very transphobia and bigotry lesbians are being accused of, right? So nobody will dare say anything out loud.

That could lead to quite a gloomy trip up the Rhine or wherever.

NewlyGranny: I think this is already happening. I've spoken previously about my experiences at a university LGBTQ++ club (which banned gay men from having their own spaces and events because gay men are 'privileged'. Guess what, the gay men have voted with their feet and don't really go to any general events any more.) I went to an event which was for all members of the LGBTQ etc, and I kid you not I didn't meet a single lesbian, and maybe one (at most) bisexual woman. Everyone around me was a trans woman, trans man, non binary, or some flavour of queer/gender fluid. I think the lesbians have self selected out and meet elsewhere.

Women, who are not gay, don't usually go to a gay bar and pretend they are gay men, though. I'd suspect the gay men there wouldn't be allowing their boundaries to be breached to accommodate that notion, either. I imagine any woman identifying as a 'gay man' would get short shrift, with no feeling of obligation to caress their 'identity'.
This does happen though. Women identifying as gay men are on grindr and go to saunas (and got refused entry at one but was let in after they checked their licence apparently) and there are cases of women committing rape by deception on gay men and on other women.

I think the lesbians have self selected out and meet elsewhere.

There's some of this happening but it doesn't really help in meeting new people, if we are relying on meeting a friend of a friend at a private party.

There is a need for lesbian events, where lesbians can meet other lesbians, and unless everyone is aware of and happy with the fact transwomen will make up a proportion of the "lesbians" there, it's not really fair on those who pay money to go along and meet other women.

A straight man who goes to a nightclub for "ladies night" where women get in free is paying for the fact there are women there, he's not paying to dance with his mates. If he showed up and it was like the club on the first Inbetweeners film he'd feel ripped off. Lesbians are not well off as a demographic (there are obviously well off lesbians but not the majority!) so many will just stop going to things, if we learn that what is advertised as an opportunity to meet other lesbians turns out to be something else.

Obviously in some circumstances a mixed group is fine, but the issue is that isn't always clear. If I was going to an LGBT event I'd expect lesbians to be a small minority; if I was going to a lesbian event I'd expect it to be only lesbians there with maybe some bi women and a handful of straight friends.

It's a sad situation and the fact many lesbians are trying to hide underground is indicative of how bad things are. Also, if you've only recently come out, there's not much that isn't mixed, LGBTQetc. How would you find gender critical lesbians, and enough of them to create a lesbian-centred social life? It's hard work and even in Brighton it isn't easy. One bar that used to be lesbian central now has "no terfs" signage all over it.

I think the numbers of 'transwomen'* in certain groups/ events is rising. There's one I'm aware of where the organisers, having allowed a couple of TWs to sign up for camping weekends and activity days, are starting to get concerned because those TWs have put the word out and they're getting more interest from that direction. I understand that at a recent event involving around 20 people, 5 were trans. Word gets around.

• I wrote 'transwomen' because frankly no one has any idea what they are dealing with. I've heard that the organisers of one 'lesbian' event that is open to TWs suspect that the event was attended by a cross-dressing stag party for a laugh. It comes to something, doesn't it, when lesbians are trying to sort out the genuine TWs from the fake TWs, but that's where we're going.

I wonder if it's this company?
www.olivia.com/

Be interesting to know if this will in anyway impact them or whoever long term. They very clearly state they are for Lesbians and LGBTQI+ women. (Doesn't make sense that sentence).
Because lesbian businesses do struggle a bit. Maybe Transwomen have more money statistically and needed to prop up the business model?
This has made me think booking is a risk. Not that I was in the market for a cruise. Be nice though right now some cocktails and a sunlounger (Without the thought of covid and being the only lezza on board)

@Shedbuilder I saw a women's group on FB say 'we welcome all women but we are not an LGBTQ womens group'. I wonder if that's what they meant? I was a bit put out when I read as was planning to join but then I thought 'but I'm coming in my capacity as a woman who likes this hobby and my sexuality isn't even part of it' and thought they sounded a bit, not homophobic, but like they just wanted straight women with husbands/boyfriends at home. Bit like in the olden days when some women would say 'she's alright but I hope she isn't going to try it on with me' (usually said behind your back by the office cowbag who would literally be the last person you'd try it on with!).
But now I'm wondering if this is a PC way f this group saying no transwomen. Which means then Lesbians are getting excluded as caught up in this.
(By lesbians i mean the original use)

There cannot be such a thing as a male lesbian.
If they are male & fancy women they are heterosexual, if they are male & fancy lesbians they are out of luck.

I'm not aware of a single lesbian group that promotes itself openly on FB and other social media that is actually, strictly, female only. I know several groups where the organisers started out saying that it was female only and all of them have been 'persuaded' to admit TWs. And I hate having to write like this because of course when I write 'lesbian' that should 100% be understood as female.

The only female-only lesbian groups I attend or am aware of are all organised underground, not openly publicised and involve women being vouched for as lesbian and GC. And even then I've seen one of those private, invitation-only groups dissolve when it turned out that one of the trusted GC members was planning to bring her transwoman friend ('Oh, it's only Diana, she won't be a problem') to an event.

One of the things I'm learning is that you can tell women that this is a female-only, gender critical group and they nod and say that's what they're looking for, but you have absolutely no idea what they understand by those words. I now ask five questions and they have to get them all right before they are allowed to join.

That's infuriating, @Shedbuilder. I am thinking of going on a trip with a women's walking group next year but now worried I will end up having to be polite to transwomen...

Unless 'lesbian' is now meaningless, it's impossible for a male to be a lesbian.