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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

LGBA and terfs are just old, white and negative...

77 replies

Shedbuilder · 05/11/2021 20:03

So says a lesbian friend of 18 years: a woman who's attended the excellent parties we've held, spent many hours at our table, leaned on us for support when she was having a hard time, holidayed with us and generally had quite a lot of fun in our presence.

Apparently all we and the LGBA ever talk about are dull negative terfy things. We're full of hate and we're just a bunch of embittered old white women. She's joined a couple of 'fun' lesbian groups which promote weekends and activities and include an increasing number of transwomen as word goes round about how trans-friendly they are.

'You just don't understand,' she says. 'They've really suffered, these transwomen. They've been trapped in the wrong body for years. They have a lot of trauma and mental health issues. We need to be kind and support them, not constantly negative.' The transwomen she's pictured with on these weekends are in their 40s and 50s: late transitioners.

Apparently the LGB Alliance is just for old white women who talk about hate in interviews with the press. She says that they give lesbians a bad name and that everyone assumes that all lesbians are spouting vitriol and hatred — and she's not going to do that, she's going to be kind and see the good and positive in transpeople.

So that's another one off my Christmas card list.

OP posts:
Grumpyosaurus · 06/11/2021 08:18

OP, I'm sorry you have lost a friend - it's a horrible thing to happen.

But I'm another one who so fed up of being told that my views don't matter because I'm middle class, white and middle-aged. Either everyone has a right to be heard, or no one does.

OhHolyJesus · 06/11/2021 08:22

The late transitioning male bodied people, to use a turn of phrase, may not be so much fun if they realise she doesn't fancy them.

It's always sad to lose a friend Shed but I also think it saves times and energy, especially in defending your support of the LGB Alliance.

Menstrualcycledisplayteam · 06/11/2021 08:25

@MoltenLasagne

What gets me, even if LGB Alliance were just older, white, women - so sodding what? What is it about being over 40, or white, or female means that women shouldn't have the right to stand up for themselves, and be angry about men trying to take their rights and loudly say "No!"?
Because we're dangerous. By this age, we've generally stopped giving a crap about what people think about us, so it's just another way of shutting us up.
MarshmallowSwede · 06/11/2021 08:34

I know lots of women of colour who are very Gender critical.

I love how these people associate women standing up for boundaries as being right wing and somehow racist, when women of colour have experienced complete disregard for their boundaries from white men many times simply because of their skin colour.

So these people can have my ass to kiss. These are the sort of people that will say something racist and then shout about their one black friend.

I don’t buy it. It’s another way to get women to be quiet. We are supposed to accept mens bullshit in the form of TRAs so that we aren’t accused of being racist and being navel gazey white people? Yeah no.. women of colour are also gender critical and it’s cute how they act like it’s only white women who have a problem with the rights of women being taken away.

TRAs love to trot out the people of colour for their activism, but throw away the same people of colour when it suits them. Let’s face it.. the entire TRA lobby is for white men. The trans women and men of colour they use as props.

So I’m not buying what they are selling. Your friend sounds like an idiot. The trans women in her “womens group” are old white men who have been men longer than a half century. She doesn’t get that joke it seems.

I’m a young woman. And I’m gender critical. I have been able to spot men’s bullshit since I was about 12 when I grew large breasts. Nothing will make you more aware of male nonsense than being a child with the body of an adult woman. And this TRA movement is nothing more than more men’s bullshit.

So, no it’s not only old white women. It’s women of all ages and ethnicities that are gender critical. Your friend just wants to make herself feel better while she actively participates in her own gaslighting. I imagine she’s under a lot of acute mental distress by having to deny reality to protect the feelings of men.

So be it. Handmaidens will always be there, and dick pandering is a second job for some women. I couldn’t be friends with a woman like this myself personally. Nothing bothers me more than a weak spirited woman who puts the feelings of men above her own well-being.

MarshmallowSwede · 06/11/2021 08:50

Imagine being a white man for 50 years.. half a century. Being from a wealthy western nation, where you have been the most empowered, privileged and able to enforce and reinforce the power dynamics so you are not challenged.

Now, at year 51 of your life these dynamics are getting push back and you’re having to power share for a more equal and balanced society. So what do you do? You become the “most oppressed group”.. you’re a trans woman and no one anywhere no matter what has ever had it worse than you.

That previous half a century of living as a man suddenly doesn’t matter.

Like I said.. I know men’s bullshit when I see it. And this is the mother load of a man who knows he is lying and you know he is lying, but he is trying very hard to gaslight you into believing his lie. You’re stupid if you believe him. But he’s so invested in the lie.. he needs you to believe the lie. So he goes to extreme lengths so you believe him.

This is one of those moments. Except it’s happening on a mass scale of men lying to and gaslighting women.

SomepeopleareTERFSgetoverit · 06/11/2021 09:11

@Ereshkigalangcleg

As a same sex attracted lesbian I've stopped being nice and polite trying to defend my sexual orientation. From now on its going to be fucking brutal truths to anyone and everyone trying to claim men can be lesbians! If you don't like that I'm sorry, I'm done, strangers, friends, family will be told to fuck off

You have my full support. No equivocation.

What was Rex Landy’s line? TERF = Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits.
CreepingDeath · 06/11/2021 09:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Shedbuilder · 06/11/2021 09:30

@TheGirlCat

OP, does she realise that her new friends think she's not a true lesbian if she doesn't ride a ladycock? Does she even know that? Would she be interested in dating a person with male genitals that calls themselves a lesbian? Because I think you need to tell her and ask her where she stands on this.
I think this is at the heart of things. She's found a couple of lesbian groups that offer a bit of fun and things she wouldn't normally do — quad-bike riding, skiing holidays, zip-rides, horse-trekking, long weekends bar-hopping in foreign capitals — and she's looking for a girlfriend. (And yes, those events don't come cheap and are designed to keep the riff-raff out of the group. It's very middle class and. white!)

The cost involved is showing to the rest of that group how kind and accepting you are of transwomen. The group is self-policing: if your face and opinions don't fit they'l politely edge you out. Presumably opinions like the one she's come out with this evening are the acceptable opinions in the group. She works in a Stonewalled organisation and would be horrified to think that we regard her as ageist and racist.

It must be hell in her head. And yes, although she's said she's not sexually attracted to the transbians in the group, I can imagine a situation where she would be coerced into having a relationship with one to prove to everyone that she's not transphobic. She's entered a world where lesbians prove how nice and popular they are, and win likes and approval, by centring men.

OP posts:
prudencepuffin · 06/11/2021 10:02

Joining a new friendship group with the cost of abandoning your ethics to "have fun" sounds like something which will come back to bite you. I`m sure you have better and more grounded friends Shed, but yes, its always hard when someone you once liked turns out to be different from what you thought they were

FlyingOink · 06/11/2021 10:04

Really doesn't sound worth it for a bit of quad biking tbh

FlyingOink · 06/11/2021 10:06

Joining a new friendship group with the cost of abandoning your ethics to "have fun" sounds like something which will come back to bite you.
This. And it sounds a bit desperate too.

Shedbuilder · 06/11/2021 10:10

They have fun. Yes, there's probably a bit of desperation involved. She's older herself, she's got herself into the 'cool' new exciting fun group and she's hoping to stay there.

OP posts:
FlyingOink · 06/11/2021 10:13

Well we'd all like to have fun, and it's always nice to be able to find a girlfriend, but not at the expense of one's own dignity.
And pretending Nigel the finance director is a woman because he's put some slap on is just undignified.
Sorry she let you down, OP.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/11/2021 10:48

I mean the deleted one.

No, but she has my full support in telling homophobes and their enablers to fuck off as she said in her subsequent posts, I don't particularly care what she wrote because it doesn't change that.

BloodinGutters · 06/11/2021 10:48

[quote NecessaryScene]They are desperate to be anti-racist, to be understanding to the poor gender-confused people who have been hiding for so long, and the rest. They have no clue that their assumptions about non-white people are often quite stereotyped and a little patronizing, or that they don't get gender theory and some of their ideas are actually considered transphobic.

I always thought this was kind of more of a US thing, but I guess it happens elsewhere.

Was watching John McWhorter yesterday, and he's quite fed up with this - his new book is "Woke Racism".

JM: Woke racism is that there's a certain kind of Woke person who feels that it's not only about being leftistly informed, but that there's this basic proposition that we must be primarily focused on overturning power differentials, and especially what they call white supremacy. That that must be the focus of intellectual, artistic and moral endeavour, and if you're not doing that then you are evil and you should be chased out of the public square; you should lose your job; you should be shamed.

That's a kind of Woke person. With that kind of person they're so committed to this basic display that they know what racism is, that it's become the heartbeat of a religion. Very much a religion. That has become so important that even when they do things and stick up for things that hurt black people, they don't pay attention and they don't care, because what they really care about is showing that they know racism exists, because that shows that they're good people.

So it ends up being unintentional, but it is a Woke racism, and this book has been written to blow the whistle on it.

Interviewer: It seems like there's an inherent connection with virtue signalling there, if the reason that people are prepared to take a narrative over the top of its actual impacts, the reason for that is that they're concerned with how they're signalling to the world at large.

JM: I would even put it as the virtue signalling has become a religion instead of just something that people do idly, and it's really scary to see because people will fiercely virtue signal and claim that what they're doing is creating social justice. They're claiming that it's for other people, but they're much less concerned with the other people than they really would be if we hadn't gone from politics to a religion.

(You see similar dynamics for TRAs - and that's possibly the dominant form of that behaviour in the UK, rather than using race)

[/quote] Joan Didion wrote a brilliant and concise article about morality back in 1965 that calls out virtual signally, I read it as a teen. The line ‘the ethic of conscience is inherently insidious’ always stuck with me.
WarriorN · 06/11/2021 10:50

Tell her she's being ageist, sexist and to read up on AGP.

Keke94LND · 06/11/2021 11:22

Firstly, I am white but I'm certainly not old (I'm 27), secondly, I'm not sure why it's only white people who are considered to have opinions that not everyone agrees with, are black or Asian people only allowed to agree with everyone else? I mean, the wii spa incident involved women who were not white. Thirdly, why are old white women's views not valid? Seems like sexist ageism to me.

AdultHumanChicken · 06/11/2021 13:42

You know, you do sound as if you think that your friend should have to agree with you just because you helped her in the past.

That's not how friendship works.

After 18 years she's allowed to say she thinks you've become a bit obsessed about a single issue and then she can go and have fun with whoever the fuck she likes.

YABU

Shedbuilder · 06/11/2021 15:39

No, I don't expect friends to agree with me, just expect them to be able to debate with me from an informed standpoint and in an intelligent way. Writing off an important movement and organisation (LGBA) on the basis that it's just a group of old white women doesn't meet the standard. She's shown herself to be ageist, sexist, racist and stupid. I had mistaken her all these years for a moderately intelligent feminist. I was mistaken.

I hope she doesn't end up doing something she'll regret just for virtue points.

OP posts:
AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 06/11/2021 15:45

I feel like this attitude is just like a boiled frog analogy.
They’re happily goofing away about how warm their water is. Our TERF water is freezing after all!
Little do they know, as their water heats up they’re less and less likely to be able to escape (retain same sex spaces) until it’s too late (they realise they personally need them).

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 06/11/2021 15:45

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

I feel like this attitude is just like a boiled frog analogy. They’re happily goofing away about how warm their water is. Our TERF water is freezing after all! Little do they know, as their water heats up they’re less and less likely to be able to escape (retain same sex spaces) until it’s too late (they realise they personally need them).
Happily gloating about*
Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 07/11/2021 20:08

As a same sex attracted lesbian I've stopped being nice and polite trying to defend my sexual orientation. From now on its going to be fucking brutal truths to anyone and everyone trying to claim men can be lesbians! If you don't like that I'm sorry, I'm done, strangers, friends, family will be told to fuck off

Yep. Me too. I've completely run out of self censorship tokens. Being kind is what got us in this mess.

ChateauMargaux · 08/11/2021 07:49

Also worth remembering that 87% of the UK population is white.... while it is CRUCIAL that we see and hear from non white people on all topics, if we were to poll a representative sample of people... 87% of them would be white. (2019 census)

MargaritaPie · 08/11/2021 17:32

Do we have stats that give a breakdown of age ranges in the UK?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2021 17:38

www.statista.com/statistics/281174/uk-population-by-age/

You can work out the ranges based on whatever criteria you want to apply

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