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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me explain why it’s a problem

51 replies

Papierdecoupe · 05/11/2021 18:51

I’m not up to speed with all the terminology and I’ve got Trans by Helen Joyce and Material Girls by Kathleen Stock on order. I’m on a mission to educate myself on what’s going on.

All I know is that teenagers/young children seem to be very preoccupied with gender identity and pronouns these days. It seems rare to find a teenager or young adult who says they’re heterosexual and the same gender identity as their sex.

I know my employer is pushing for pronouns to be stated on our name badges. I provide care to women and my employer is showing signs of adopting gender neutral language regarding this. Think ‘chest feeding’ kind of thing.

I know that some women have been ostracised for their beliefs surrounding sex and gender identity and safe spaces for women.

I feel so uncomfortable about all of this. My DH is sitting on the fence(ish) and says what’s happening is just the same as what happened with the increased visibility of lesbian/gay relationships in the 80s and 90s. Pushing boundaries and making people feel uncomfortable for their prejudices. He says the same happened for ethnic groups in the 50s and 60s - riots, challenging segregation, civil rights movements etc.

I wholeheartedly believe that trans people exist and it’s a real ‘thing’. I believe they need a space, respect and to feel safe. However, I am so uncomfortable that my children are now growing up to think that gender identity and sexual orientation are things to be decided and stated early on. I feel like I’m a bigot for saying that. I don’t know why I find it a problem and I don’t know how to explain it to DH. Can anyone help?

OP posts:
toofer · 06/11/2021 20:01

The problem with your scenario is it ignores the fact there is a conflict of rights and/or assumes that where there is a conflict, the TW's rights override the rights of all the women in the workplace.

Lots of people do think that - because of course men's rights are seen as more important than women's rights, and the assumption is that women should always given way.

That is misogyny. Why should women's safe spaces - which women fought for decades to have, be removed to suit a tiny number of TW? Google the urinary leash to find out how women could not leave the house in the days before women's toilets existed, as there was nowhere safe for them to urinate.

You're also assuming that the TW is definitely always sincere. However, the problem is that it is impossible for any woman to know whether someone with a male body in women's toilets is harmless and just wants to pee, or is a rapist who is there to attack women. Rapists are not exactly going up be honest about their intentions. It is not proportionate to put all women using the facilities at risk just to make a tiny number of TW feel validated.

Floisme · 06/11/2021 20:06

I would probably say to them: 'Are you seriously drawing an analogy between a black woman and a transwoman? Are you quite sure you want to do that?'

As for a B&B owner turning away someone wanting to book a room because they're trans, that sounds like a straightforward case of discrimination and I would wish the transwoman / transman every success.

FOJN · 06/11/2021 20:16

if you are born a man you cannot use facilities for women as it makes women feel unsafe’?

98 - 99% of all sexual offences are committed by men. TW exhibit the same pattern of offending as males. In fact approx 20% of the male prison population are serving sentences for sex offences but among makes who identify as TW that figure is 49%. Regardless of gender identity males present more of a risk to women than the other way round and whilst most makes are not sex offender we are unable to tell which ones are just by looking at them so it makes sense for some spaces to be single sex.

Some jobs require everyone to have a DBS check because people who would cause others harm cannot be visually distinguished from decent potential employees

FOJN · 06/11/2021 20:17

Males FFS I hate AutoCorrect

Papierdecoupe · 06/11/2021 20:38

@FOJN love that point about DBS checks.

@Floisme and @toofer that all seems logical and argues that (very poor) question well. But I just can’t get my head around the fact that if this is just about protecting safe spaces for women and girls - why has it got this far? It feels like to be GC you’re arguing big things, and then it’s broken down and you can see the differences between equality and the infringement on other people’s rights. And then I just don’t understand this whole censorship. DH was on Reddit earlier searching for forums about TA and GC, and found that the GC forum had been removed as it went against site guidelines. It just seems so big and threatening and I don’t understand where the power is coming from.

OP posts:
FOJN · 06/11/2021 21:30

The point about DBS checks is important because we're often accused of trying to portray TW as sexual predators when what we're actually saying is they are male and present the same risks as other males. No one gets upset about airport security because they think they are being labelled a terrorist.

The discrepancy between sex offending rates matters too. We're told no one would abuse self ID for nefarious reasons and yet TW in the prison population are serving time for sex offences at a much higher rate than other males so either they are more likely to be sex offenders OR some males without gender dysphoria are claiming TW status for reasons we can only speculate about. I know which one I think is more likely.

MistandMud · 06/11/2021 21:37

I’ve had some success with simplifying it down to ‘If you treat male and female women exactly the same, you disadvantage the female women, because their bodies are different.’

People who haven’t really thought about it at all (that’ll be most men I’ve ever met) blink at the phrase ‘male women’ and the penny just possibly starts to drop.

sharksarecool · 06/11/2021 22:15
  1. It's not the same as other other civil rights movements because they were about, for example, ensuring that black people received all the same rights as as qhite people. No one ever tried to sugget that black people were white or vice versa.

There are 9 protected characteristics. Sometimes these require equal treatment (eg people can't be discriminated on grounds of race, religion, etc) but sometimes these require special treatment (e.g. disability). We have single sex spaces for the protection of women just as we have disabled parking bays for disabled people. If we allow people to self-id as disabled then loads of able-bodied people would take the parking spaces and actul disabled people would miss out. This is whats happening qith women's sports nd spaces.

  1. Its dangerous because most sexual assaults are committed by men against women. This is the whole reason why we have single sex facilities in the first place. Transwomen (ie men who identify a women) conform to male patterns of offending (mostly sexual and/or violent crimes), not female ones (shoplifting, drug offences, etc) so they pose no less risk than any other male.
  1. Its particularly dangerous for children because, despite the fact that most adult transwomen elect to retain their male genitalia, children who question their gender are enouraged to proceed quickly down the medical pathway. A 12 year old can be put on puberty blockers which have a negative inoact on bone density and cognitive function. This in turn increases the likelihood of moving to cross sex hormones which lead to infertility. Girls who are uncomfortable with developing breasts (weren't we all?) are having masectomies, in some countries this is as young as 14. And they are all so saturated in gender ideoligy that they are made to feel selfish or transphobic for not wanting to undress in front of males, so their privacy and boundaries are eroded making them more open to grooming.
SweetBabyCheeses99 · 06/11/2021 22:39

You’ve bought Helen Joyce’s book so just read it!

BreatheAndFocus · 06/11/2021 22:53

Another question - say you go to use a toilet at work and there’s a transwoman using it. You complain to management that you felt unsafe etc. The trans woman is hurt that you don’t see them as a woman, as that is how they identify and who they want to be. What do you say to that? Because is the GC position to say ‘if you are born a man you cannot use facilities for women as it makes women feel unsafe’? And why is that different to a racist B&B in the 1960s saying they didn’t want black patrons because they made them feel unsafe? Obviously we know that some black people, the same as white people, might be criminals. But the majority are not and we know that the B&B owners would have been reacting out of fear of change, prejudice, racism etc

Toilets are single sex - ie the female toilet is for female people. The presence of a male person, however they identify, makes them mixed sex. Does your DH use the Women’s toilets? I mean I expect he’s freak some women out but it’s ok because he’s not a predator? No, of course it’s not OK. It’s a single sex space - for safety but also for privacy and dignity.

There is no comparison at all with the racist signs some B&Bs put up in the past. We are legally permitted to have single SEX spaces and that means all males are excluded.

toofer · 07/11/2021 00:03

[quote Papierdecoupe]@FOJN love that point about DBS checks.

@Floisme and @toofer that all seems logical and argues that (very poor) question well. But I just can’t get my head around the fact that if this is just about protecting safe spaces for women and girls - why has it got this far? It feels like to be GC you’re arguing big things, and then it’s broken down and you can see the differences between equality and the infringement on other people’s rights. And then I just don’t understand this whole censorship. DH was on Reddit earlier searching for forums about TA and GC, and found that the GC forum had been removed as it went against site guidelines. It just seems so big and threatening and I don’t understand where the power is coming from.[/quote]
What you've discovered is the extreme lengths men will go to shut down women and to roll back women's rights. Men who objected to the success of the women's rights movement, who hated the traction that MeToo was getting etc - gender extremism gave them a bandwagon they could jump on to attack women's rights and safety.

It's not an accident that it is mainly women who have been attacked over this, nor that they have been attacked using violent, sexualised threats - see all the rape and sexualised death threats made against JK Rowling, Margaret Atwood etc.

Gender extremism is an extreme Men's Rights Movement. It pretends to be about equal rights but it is violently misogynistic. It pretends to care about LGB people but it is actually virulently homophobic.

There is a very good reason why the people leading the fight against gender extremism are mainly left-wing lesbians! (Eg Keira Bell, Alison Bell, Kathleen Stock and many more.) They recognise a homophobic, misogynistic movement when they see one.

dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 07/11/2021 00:04

@SweetBabyCheeses99

You’ve bought Helen Joyce’s book so just read it!
Great advice. She did say she had ordered it. So she must not have a Kindle lol.
toofer · 07/11/2021 00:14

Gender extremism has succeeded by 5 means:

  1. Threats of violence - like any authoritarian, far right movement, they correctly ascertained that if you came across as sufficiently violent and threatening, few people would be brave enough to fight back. Most would look the other way because it was safer.
  1. Pretending to be progressive and coming in on the coattails of the LGB movement. Hence all the anger at the LGB Alliance, for pointing out that LGB and T don't really have anything in common.
  1. Secrecy and 'No Debate'. As none of these ideas would stand up to scrutiny if discussed, and the misogyny and homophobia would be obvious, the only way to get this through was by refusing to talk about it, and banning people from engaging in discussions on the subject.
  1. Institutional capture - secretly, behind the scenes, putting key people into positions of power across govt, the civil service, etc. This allowed gender extremists great power in influencing laws etc.
  1. Making sure to influence the young and gullible, by selling the movement as 'be kind' and as 'being their true self' and investing heavily in education from the ages when kids are too young to have the knowledge of the world or the logical skills to be able to challenge what they are taught as fact. As other authoritarian movements have shown, the young often make the most committed ideologues.
TalkingFeminism · 07/11/2021 11:45

Just wanted to add a point re: toilets.

The issue is not just that trans women appear to have the same offending pattern as other males. The issue is that women are being instructed, often explicitly, to not challenge penis-bearers in our spaces. The issue is that this paves the way for bad faith actors, whether trans or not, to enter women's spaces.

Perhaps ask your DH how he feels about the male bodied people in women's toilets and change rooms. Let's say someone comes into your change room who you can immediately sex as male, or who you discover has a penis - what would he have you do? Bite your lip? Only say something if this person 'seems dodgy'? Are all sexual predators dodgy-looking? How can we chuck out the bad faith actors if anyone can simply assert they are a woman?

On the one hand we have women being told that if we are arrested by a sole male police officer and we're not sure of his credentials we should flag down a bus; on the other we are being told we should not challenge men in our private spaces.

The beauty of single sex spaces is that you don't have to many any assessment of the intent of the male-bodied person. It is straightforward: male ----> door.

My question for people like your DH is: what is the logical endpoint of his argument? Does he think we don't require separate provision for women at all? If not, who is a 'woman' in his opinion, and how would he suggest dealing with bad faith actors? What's the error cost of his approach?

HerewardTheWoke · 07/11/2021 13:50

@Papierdecoupe

Thank you for all these links and information. We’re going to sit this evening and watch a few of the interviews linked. The information about safeguarding children has been great and clarified a lot.

Another question - say you go to use a toilet at work and there’s a transwoman using it. You complain to management that you felt unsafe etc. The trans woman is hurt that you don’t see them as a woman, as that is how they identify and who they want to be. What do you say to that? Because is the GC position to say ‘if you are born a man you cannot use facilities for women as it makes women feel unsafe’? And why is that different to a racist B&B in the 1960s saying they didn’t want black patrons because they made them feel unsafe? Obviously we know that some black people, the same as white people, might be criminals. But the majority are not and we know that the B&B owners would have been reacting out of fear of change, prejudice, racism etc. And thankfully society has moved on from being able to do things like that. Equally we know that some men or trans women using toilets might be criminals, but the majority are hopefully not. I’m playing devil’s advocate here. I am firmly of the opinion that they are different, but just intrigued to hear how people who are well read on the topic would argue those points.

It would be as wrong for a B&B to exclude trans patrons as it would be for them to exclude black patrons, because a B&B is not a context where the sex (or race) of patrons matters.

However, public changing rooms and toilets are contexts where, in order for users to be able to preserve their privacy, dignity and safety, sex matters.

We all have human rights to privacy and dignity. The way that we access those rights in the context of public spaces like public toilets and public changing rooms is by having sex-segregated spaces (with equitable provision for both sexes). This is because it violates most people's sense of privacy and dignity to be naked in front of, or to deal with private bodily functions next to strangers of the opposite sex. This is a normal and healthy social boundary. Some people may not have that social boundary, but we don't make provision on the basis of the people who are happy to consent to mixed-sex spaces, because that would result in large numbers of people being excluded from loos/changing rooms in public spaces. Sex-based provision is an inclusive measure, because it allows those who cannot share with the opposite sex also to access public space.

I think there are arguments for additional spaces for those who don't feel comfortable with the space for their own sex, but because that would require hard campaigning effort and cost lots of money and hassle to implement, campaigners/organisations have taken the path of least resistance and pushed to make all spaces, or in some cases just women's spaces, mixed-sex. But this is the wrong approach for the reasons given above. The correct approach would be additional spaces (as was successfully implemented for disabled facilities), because that would accommodate everyone and not override anybody's personal boundaries or rights. I would 100% back anyone campaigning for this but for some reason that does not seem to be the focus of trans rights activism currently.

For women there is an additional safety argument for sex-based provision, because in enclosed spaces where we take clothes off we are much more exposed to violence, harassment and voyeurism. Men are much more likely to commit these crimes than women given the opportunity, and women are disproportionately vulnerable to catastrophic outcomes from male violence because we are far less physically strong than men. So we exclude males from spaces where women are particularly vulnerable - not because we believe all men are a risk, but because we know that some men are, and that we cannot reliably identify them in advance. It is fundamentally a safeguarding approach: you make the policy on the basis of preventing the worst outcomes of the very worst scenario, not on the basis of the average risk to any individual woman.

jellyfrizz · 07/11/2021 14:03

And why is that different to a racist B&B in the 1960s saying they didn’t want black patrons because they made them feel unsafe?

Because females are the black patrons in this scenario, not the B & B.

Sometimes segregation is important for the vulnerable group (see also scholarships for women/minority groups, age categories for the young and old, toileting provision for differently abled people....).

Female toilets are different to male toilets because of need, women need to wee sitting down and often need sanitary bins.

Trans women using female toilets is more akin to an able bodied person insisting on using the disabled toilets.

CreepingDeath · 07/11/2021 15:39

But I just can’t get my head around the fact that if this is just about protecting safe spaces for women and girls - why has it got this far? It feels like to be GC you’re arguing big things, and then it’s broken down and you can see the differences between equality and the infringement on other people’s rights.

The short answer is that it overwhelmingly negatively affects women and girls. So most men don't really give a shit. And the internet means it spread globally.

The long answer:
Unfortunately, this lays bare the reality that there are too many men who don't want women to have safe spaces, or don't care enough to protect them. And in this vacuum a number of nefarious men have asserted their power, and simultaneously claimed victimhood.

How did we get here? Is a difficult question to answer because there are so many layers. Here's a few ideas:

Technology - manipulating young people into being pawns in all this.

Pharmaceuticals - realising they can make millions selling hormones to unhappy children.

Porn-soaked men - who can now be open about their proclivities and even publicly celebrated for them.

Public organisations - who want to be seen to be 'diverse and inclusive' but don't actually want to put the work in, so outsource it to Stonewall, a well respected name. Also, people who are actually disadvantaged, like poor people and mentally ill people and disabled people are massively under represented, and also it's just not cool or sexy and doesn't have a funky flag and lanyard. So they get forgotten about. The rainbow branded inclusiveness is easy.

Beardy woke arseholes - who jump on the bandwagon to attack and intimidate women who dare to say no. This way they get to show their hatred of women openly, and be lauded for it.

Young naive women - thinking they are 'being kind' and inclusive, and that if a man (who is considered superior in our society) deigns to come down to our level and wants to walk among us, we must be so grateful and always treat him as special.

Also young women - don't want to be seen as old and unattractive feminists who are uncool, and whiny and just want to complain about stuff.

More young people: they want to be activists, they want their generations' fight, to show how relevant and important they are, and how they are 'better' than previous generations. Also technology has trained them to think they can be anything they want to be. Online you can edit and highlight and manipulate the world. They want to believe you can do that in real life too.

ArabellaScott · 07/11/2021 16:53

At the most fundamental and basic level, if we can't describe and segregate by sex than we cannot name and challenge sexism.

The trans woman is hurt that you don’t see them as a woman, as that is how they identify and who they want to be. What do you say to that? Because is the GC position to say ‘if you are born a man you cannot use facilities for women as it makes women feel unsafe’?

Why do the transwoman's hurt feelings matter more than the woman's feelings of being unsafe?

ArabellaScott · 07/11/2021 16:57

In many if not most situations, sex doesn't matter. Or shouldn't matter.

There are a few situations where it really does matter, though.

Rape victims (mostly women) overwhelmingly wish to be able to request a female examiner, for example.

This stance was called 'transphobic' by many, and there was a long and heated debate in the Scottish Parliament - last year, iirc.

Eventually, thanks to some very brave women's arguments, the legislation was changed to allow women to ask for an examiner by sex not gender. (There are doctors and HCPs who call themselves 'female' but are born male, for example).

Leafstamp · 07/11/2021 17:56

You're absolutely right to be concerned OP. Many children and young people are completely brainwashed by the idea that everyone has a gender identity. They are taught this at school. And it is NOT CORRECT.

Not everyone has a gender identity in the same way that not everyone has a religion.

And some people don't even believe in the concept of gender identity beyond it being anything other than just one aspect personality.

Gender identity ideology relies on sexist and regressive stereotypes IMO.

Many of those who are sucked in big time have SEN or are vulnerable in another way, perhaps victims of neglect or abuse. The ideology has all the appeals of a cult - right down to flags and badges and mantras.

Push back against it is my advice!

For further info, I suggest a good old look around:

gcritical.org/introduction/

and sex-matters.org/

sharksarecool · 07/11/2021 18:17

"The trans woman is hurt that you don’t see them as a woman, as that is how they identify and who they want to be. What do you say to that? Because is the GC position to say ‘if you are born a man you cannot use facilities for women as it makes women feel unsafe’? And why is that different to a racist B&B in the 1960s saying they didn’t want black patrons because they made them feel unsafe? "

The difference is that there was never any reason to segregate by race in the first place. Conversely, there used NOT to be sex-segregated toilets and other facilities at all, and women campaigned for them because they ARE necessary. The reason they are necessary is because men are bigger and stronger than women. So a woman who feels unsafe in a private space with a man is justified, because men can overpower women easily. There's no such size or strength difference between black and white people, a white person has not legitimate reason to say that sharing spaces with black people makes them unsafe.

The civil rights movement campaigned to get rid of separate spaces for "blacks" and "whites", and they succeeded because there is rarely any need for such separation. No one ever suggested retaining "black" and "white" segregated spaces but then allowing black people to self-identify into white spaces.

toofer · 08/11/2021 03:26

@sharksarecool

"The trans woman is hurt that you don’t see them as a woman, as that is how they identify and who they want to be. What do you say to that? Because is the GC position to say ‘if you are born a man you cannot use facilities for women as it makes women feel unsafe’? And why is that different to a racist B&B in the 1960s saying they didn’t want black patrons because they made them feel unsafe? "

The difference is that there was never any reason to segregate by race in the first place. Conversely, there used NOT to be sex-segregated toilets and other facilities at all, and women campaigned for them because they ARE necessary. The reason they are necessary is because men are bigger and stronger than women. So a woman who feels unsafe in a private space with a man is justified, because men can overpower women easily. There's no such size or strength difference between black and white people, a white person has not legitimate reason to say that sharing spaces with black people makes them unsafe.

The civil rights movement campaigned to get rid of separate spaces for "blacks" and "whites", and they succeeded because there is rarely any need for such separation. No one ever suggested retaining "black" and "white" segregated spaces but then allowing black people to self-identify into white spaces.

As I mentioned before, Google the 'urinary leash' for descriptions and explanations of why women spent decades campaigning for single-sex toilets.

To give an indication of how ludicrous the comparison is between single-sex toilets to protect women's and girls' safety, and a B&B owner excluding black guests, you and your DH should know that around the world, aid charities including Oxfam etc have spent years campaigning to get...single-sex toilets, to allow girls to safely attend school, for example.

The idea that our leading aid charities are all campaigning for something that is the equivalent of racism, in the poorest countries in the world, is patently ludicrous.

What this misunderstanding comes down to is a (deliberate) pretence that all boundaries are bad - that anything that involves allowing a powerless and vulnerable group (eg women, or children) to maintain boundaries is Bad, and equivalent to segregation, or exclusion.

But of course that is the opposite of the truth - women and girls are entitled to boundaries, to keep us safe, such as boundaries around our bodies and our space. We have the right to say No to men wanting to infiltrate those boundaries, physically or sexually, whether the men involved like it or not. We have a right to bodily autonomy.

The kind of men who try to argue that women have no rights to bodily autonomy, to privacy, to safety, are the kind of predators who are precisely the kind of men women wish to keep out of our spaces - for good reason. That way lies rape culture. It is against these men and in defence of women's right to assert our boundaries that MeToo started. And make no mistake - it is as a calculated attack on women's boundaries that this form of reactionary, regressive gender extremism has risen to prominence so quickly. It is not a Trans Rights Movement. It is a Men's Rights Movement.

To attempt to conflate women's right to boundaries and freedom from assault with segregation is a deliberately bad faith argument. It does not stand up to a second's scrutiny. Segregation as practiced in S Africa was bad because it was the POWERFUL excluding the POWERLESS, from the realm of power.

That is completely the opposite to (eg women's) boundaries, which are the POWERLESS asserting the right to autonomy and control over ourselves and safe spaces.

To suggest that women ought to allow men into our safe spaces is equivalent to suggesting that disabled people ought to allow non-disabled people into disabled toilets, or they are 'excluding' non-disabled people unfairly. Or the equivalent of arguing that able-bodied people should be allowed to take part in the Paralympics, or they are being unfairly biased against.

I hope that demonstrates to you how, at heart, what this is about is POWER. The whole idea that males have a right to infiltrate female spaces rests on the - unspoken - assumption that females are more powerful than males and so are being unfair if they don't share that 'privilege'.

When anyone with half a brain knows that hundreds of women a year in the UK are murdered by men (compared to zero murders of trans people in the UK now for several years), that rates of sexual assault and domestic violence against women by men have been rising for years, even while the conviction rates continue to steadily decline.

Women need safe spaces away from men. In other developed countries, this includes things like female-only train carriages, for example, to reduce women's risk of assault. We could be going further in that direction. There is certainly no evidence that it is yet safe for women to relinquish our hard-fought-for women-only spaces.

And if men don't like that, tough.

They need to be putting their energies into reducing the rising rates of violence against women first. Only when that violence is long-distance history will I, and other women, be content to give up those precious and important women-only spaces.

toofer · 08/11/2021 03:58

And this is why No Debate has been such a vital part of the strategy of the gender extremists.

It is precisely because they know that if these issues are discussed openly, lazy assumptions such as 'females are more powerful than males' and so should share our 'privilege' make no sense, that they will not allow these assumptions to be discussed.

It is why there is so much - ludicrous - emphasis on it being wrong to 'debate people's existence', when what feminists are debating is not trans people's existence (of course they exist - do they think feminists think they are figments of our imagination? Hmm ) but WOMEN'S SAFETY. Gender extremists are desperate to divide and conquer female voices discussing our shared experience of sexual assault by men, of male violence.

Hence the attempt to appeal to women's sympathy by painting TW as uniquely vulnerable, even in the absence of any evidence at all that this is so. It is why gender extremists have to resort to long-since debunked trans 'suicide statistics' based on a tiny, self-selected sample of respondents, far smaller than the sample of lesbians discussing having been raped or sexually assaulted by TW which those same gender extremists recently denounced as far too small and self-selected to be valid or worth reporting on. Hmm

If they cannot make an argument that women are powerful oppressors who 'exclude' others from their 'power' unreasonably, then their whole argument falls.

It is also part of the reason why young women are particularly vulnerable to these arguments. Brought up in a post Girl Power world, told girls can succeed at anything they want (even wearing lipstick and short skirts while they do it), they aren't yet old enough to have experienced personally what happens to women's careers once they start work and start to have children. It is far more comfortable for them to imagine that sexism is a thing of the past, that they will not face, to imagine that women's relative physical weakness no longer matters, than to acknowledge that we live in a world where the cards are still stacked against them, purely because we are female, with female bodies and reproductive systems. I wish it were not so. But while it is, wishing it away will not make sexism and misogyny disappear.

We need to defend our rights. Or we will lose them. Just as women have lost rights previously won in countless other societies.

Look at the mini-skirted university students in Afghanistan of the 1970s and consider where those young women now are under the Taliban. Gilead may have been fiction, but societies like that have existed many times and in many places, and could again in our time and our place. Look at the rolling back of women's reproductive rights in the US. Look at all the women being hounded out of jobs in the UK for daring to speak out about women's rights. Look at the increasing closure of women's safe spaces and the continuing moves to erase even the word 'woman', so we do not even have the language with which to fight for our rights!

Make no mistake - this is a deliberate, and concerted reactionary attack on women's rights.

Are you with us? Or are you complicit? Women's rights are being rolled back in plain sight. If you do nothing, say nothing, you are responsible too.

merrymouse · 08/11/2021 06:34

And why is that different to a racist B&B in the 1960s saying they didn’t want black patrons because they made them feel unsafe? Obviously we know that some black people, the same as white people, might be criminals

Women are not concerned about trans people they are concerned about men. If you want to argue that a facility should be unisex, you need to make an argument on those terms.

Differences in race are superficial and cosmetic and classifications are socially constructed. On the other hand males and females have fundamentally different internal and external physical organs. The comparison doesn’t work.

Papierdecoupe · 08/11/2021 23:28

Thanks for the continued responses. I feel like I’m on a bit of a rollercoaster and go from thinking it’s not a big deal, to feeling really angry at the world. Those last few posts and just reading the phrase ‘individuals with a womb’ in a BBC news article have left me feeling pretty mad tonight.

DH is pretty convinced on the GC side of the argument now, but has concerns we’re in an echo chamber of sorts and he’d like to really hear some trans voices on the issue. His brother is gay, young, fiery and very woke and I think he’s also worried about what he’d think (not that they should ever need to talk about it, they don’t see each other much).

OP posts:
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