Is all-male pornography less bad?

[NovaCorsaFiesta]

Is all-male pornography as bad as that featuring women? Is it still exploitative? Is it morally wrong to watch?

I think it is.

I think I do too but it is probably still not good.

Because they are men they can't be exploited?

I'm assuming you're talking about gay pornography so someone is still getting penetrated, most likely without a condom (otherwise it looks "bad" for the camera) so they are also at risk of STDs, for example. Some may be putting their bodies and privacy through that just to be able to afford to eat.

@NovaCorsaFiesta

Is all-male pornography as bad as that featuring women? Is it still exploitative? Is it morally wrong to watch?

Whether or not it is would be an issue for men. Not a feminist one. Feminism is allowed just to centre females and our issues. We don’t need to have the answers to everyone else’s problems.

There was an article some years ago that looked at the content of gay porn (ie featured only males) compared to straight porn (males and females), and whilst I don't know if it commented on the coercion/abuse of the actors, the difference in content was stark: gay porn always appeared consensual, with no violence implied. Whereas the straight stuff often featured hanging (yes real hanging ), choking, suffocation, plastic bags on heads, violent acts all against the women.

We don’t need to have the answers to everyone else’s problems.

Agreed.

I am opposed to any trafficking of people or abuse of them for all purposes.

I am leaving this for men to solve.

I think there is less money in it though. My understanding is that gay men exchange quite a lot of materials to each other for free. Happily. I think this makes the market a bit more saturated….

As it’s impossible to know if the participants are being exploited, that doesn’t sit right with me.

I do recall reading somewhere that same-sex pornography is nowhere near as violent as heterosexual porn, as @titchy says.

Yes of course it is.

Never heard of gay for pay?

The standard stuff is interesting as the dynamic very different to het.

The problem is exploitation. Young men who need cash can be and are exploited sexually.

The common factor is .. male gaze/ entitlement. Straight / gay.

I think pornography is bad in principle, so it really doesn't matter who is in it, it's still bad.

Much less bad - very little violence in gay porn

I've also never seen them being penetrated by multiple cocks at the same time

It's not a which sex thing I don't understand the question.

The porn industry is exploitative across the board.

I mean what. Click fingers no more women exploited but men yeah whatever. I mean. What?

I’m not a porn expert. Are there many on Mumsnet?

But I’d bet a lot of money that all-male porn doesn’t promote violence and the idea of sex having a power struggle and a ‘victim’ in the way that male-female does.

More importantly I’m a little depressed that the feminist section of a site set up for women finds itself worrying ‘but what about the poor men.’

With misogyny, violence against women and fanatical thinking on the rise I think there are bigger problems for feminism than worrying about how to evaluate male on male porn.

@NiceGerbil

It's not a which sex thing I don't understand the question.

The porn industry is exploitative across the board.

I mean what. Click fingers no more women exploited but men yeah whatever. I mean. What?

Some people think that porn can be made i a way that is non-exploitative. It's just that mostly, it isn't.

If you believe that, then it might be the case that you see male porn, which doesn't have quite the same issues as standard porn, as less "bad".

Of course men can still be exploited. The whole porn industry is awful.

Lobster-

I totally agree that porn can be non exploitative. But it isn't. I mean. Across the board. The harms are so big and the impact so large that the what about my neighbours who are exhibitionists and give me clips of them shagging is... By the bye.

And while the front page bogstandard gay stuff is not so nasty. There is I have no doubt. Plenty of really nasty content around and doubt it's uncommon.

There are specific issues with het porn and that's way more prolific etc. So I focus on that side.

But the problem here is the industry.

That’s a really interesting question. Unfortunately I don’t have an answer, but contrary to pp I don’t think we need to in order to debate it! I think most people are capable of being concerned about multiple things (personally I don’t have a finite resource for compassion), and in the context of feminism it’s an interesting concept. My issue is that women are often degraded in porn and that becomes normalised for the viewer if they are into that sort of behaviour and then may expect that to be the case in real life without consent. I think this is also the case with same sex porn, often there is dominance and submission. In the case of consenting adults, in real life, there is no issue. In the case of the normalisation of the physically weaker being dominated and the expectation of this by some in real life who have the strength to dominate without consent - well here lies the problem. This would also be true of weaker males being shown to be dominated in homosexual porn, and again in real life being overpowered without consent.

@Skysblue

I’m not a porn expert. Are there many on Mumsnet?

But I’d bet a lot of money that all-male porn doesn’t promote violence and the idea of sex having a power struggle and a ‘victim’ in the way that male-female does.

More importantly I’m a little depressed that the feminist section of a site set up for women finds itself worrying ‘but what about the poor men.’

With misogyny, violence against women and fanatical thinking on the rise I think there are bigger problems for feminism than worrying about how to evaluate male on male porn.

Agree.

Feminist section is for women’s issues.

We need to work against female socialisation to fix everything for everyone else, we shouldn’t be centring men in any way here.

Totally valid discussion for other parts of the site. But men’s predatory behaviour, whether preying on women or men, is the responsibility of men. It’s for men to fix. Wrong section of the site OP.

I would hazard that the OP was interested to challenge MN feminists around their focus on... Women and girls.

The implication that if magically a finger click could stop all the awful for women in porn then job done... And you know who cares about others being exploited. Is the sort of view that gets implied an awful lot.

I think that's unfair. Looking at differences between male and standard porn, considering if they are both problematic or equally so, brings out some interesting elements around what it is about porn that causes it to be a problem. Is it inherently wrong, situational, caused by the industry, inequality of the sexes, something else. Or is it about the effect on the viewer? The idea of sex as entertainment?

Exploitation for me. That's it.

And while it's big business. Huge money. Interest from those who profit in getting more consumers. Keeping existing consumers. Need to keep them coming back etc. Then it's going to be a disaster same as other lucrative massive industries.

The state of het porn and how it's changed since say I was young. It's not even the same thing really.

The impacts on everyone- men boys women girls is a massive issue as well.

If my next door neighbours wanted to share vids of them shagging with people they knew. Fine.

Sharing on net not sure how you keep away from kids.

But just fucking I mean so what. Utopian society everyone has what they need. Men and women people no oppression etc. Cool whatever.

The current reality is too grim for words. Racist misogynist the whole thing.

What do you mean by male and standard porn?

It's not different. It's male gaze either way.

If one is of the view that pornography and prostitution are inherently bad because they are degrading and dehumanising and are bad for society in general because of the brutalising effect, which I am, it's rather difficult to airily waive away any consideration of this because "I'm a feminist, it's a problem for men"

what it is about porn that causes it to be a problem. Is it inherently wrong, situational, caused by the industry, inequality of the sexes, something else. Or is it about the effect on the viewer? The idea of sex as entertainment?

I think porn is inherently wrong, regardless of the sex of the actors, because of the the likelihood of direct harm to the actors, its effect on the viewer and indirectly to society in general.

I don't think women on the thread have airily waved a hand and said it's a problem for men?

Or do you mean that women trying to change things is nigh on impossible given the situation?

male exploitation will have started with young boys, our sons.