Is all-male pornography less bad?

[NovaCorsaFiesta]

Is all-male pornography as bad as that featuring women? Is it still exploitative? Is it morally wrong to watch?

Whereas the straight stuff often featured hanging (yes real hanging sad), choking, suffocation, plastic bags on heads, violent acts all against the women.

I find it genuinely horrifying and terrifying that this is the vast majority of preteen boys' introduction to sex.

Sorry, don't have anything much to say on topic, don't know much about it. Interesting discussion though.

@NiceGerbil

I don't think women on the thread have airily waved a hand and said it's a problem for men?

Or do you mean that women trying to change things is nigh on impossible given the situation?

I am leaving this for men to solve

Whether or not it is would be an issue for men. Not a feminist one

Thanks! Would point out that the first one you've cut out whole point-

'Totally valid discussion for other parts of the site. But men’s predatory behaviour, whether preying on women or men, is the responsibility of men. It’s for men to fix. '

And how a feminist can say that male predatory behaviour towards women is for men to fix and so shouldn't be discussed on this board is... Slightly baffling tbh!

Oh shit wrong bloody post! That post certainly makes no sense to me though.

Ok won't bother looking for the others as CBA and sure you're right.

Ridiculous thing to say.

How do you 'fix' exploitation of women in porn, and somehow not fix it for men?

What kind of person would say. Young women being exploited must stop but young men being exploited meh?

If they mean that then I have no common ground with them. Because that's inhumane.

Remember not all posters on here think the same and not all see themselves as feminists. Or are different sorts of feminists. Etc etc.

The thing is, even from a feminist perspective, you would argue it differently if you just thought exploitation was the issue, and it could theoretically be ok, vs thinking it is inherently problematic.

I have a very definite view on that myself, but lots of people don't, they are still thinking about it. They know it seems bad, but need to tease apart why. Considering if it might be different depending on whether the performers were men or women could help clarify a person's thinking around that.

If women in porn are treated worse than men in porn, then that's a feminist issue.

Porn may be bad and exploitative whether involving men or women, but it's still of interest to know that women are abused more violently than men.

Lobster why would it be ok to think differently? Exploitation is exploitation.

The fact that loads of feminist aims help issues for men as well is well recognised. This is just one more example.

Pickle I think it's more about-

Amount of content
How easy to find (grim het stuff is standard, grim gay stuff maybe a category for example)

I have no doubt that gay content is no better. Just less of it and less mainstream.

Not an expert on the subject but I think the difference lies in who the porn is made for. Straight porn is made for straight men to view, so the woman is merely there for the man's entertainment. The male viewer won't imagine himself as the woman, so her pleasure is secondary.
In gay porn the male viewer could imagine himself as either participant, or both. So they both need to appear to enjoy themselves.
That doesn't mean that exploitation can't happen in both industries for a number of other reasons, I just think it means that straight porn is inherently more exploitative because it gives an unbalanced view iyswim.

I think that's a nice idea but very naive.

Appetite for eg those who look young being subjected to xyz is popular with men irrespective of sex of young person.

I can't see the point in saying which is worse tbh.

I have the views I do because exploitation plus effect on society etc. My focus is on women - how horrific this industry is.

I have no idea why there needs to be comparisons etc.

Push to improve things for women etc. Or to reduce harm in general eg children viewing. And that applies across the board. Will help any men being exploited whether care about that or not.

This conversation doesn't make sense to me really tbh!

I think porn is problematic because it gives pleasure without effort and responsibility. The focus is pleasing the viewer rather than the viewer pleasing someone else - which is what consensual, healthy sex is about. Even if you cut out the violence, there is still this expectation to receive this same pleasure from someone else.

I would say this is the same for gay and lesbian porn too (though I haven’t watched). Banning it totally is impractical as lots of people are fine with it. BUT banning violent porn and treating it like child porn is not impractical and would be a huge step forward. I’m not really sure how or why people can defend having videos of strangulation, rape etc - when there have been real life cases of such sex gone ‘wrong’.

@NiceGerbil

Thanks! Would point out that the first one you've cut out whole point-

'Totally valid discussion for other parts of the site. But men’s predatory behaviour, whether preying on women or men, is the responsibility of men. It’s for men to fix. '

And how a feminist can say that male predatory behaviour towards women is for men to fix and so shouldn't be discussed on this board is... Slightly baffling tbh!

Male violence against women and girls is for men to fix.

We don’t need to fix why they are violent or find ways to make them be less violent. That’s the job of other men.

Imho feminism following female socialisation of fixing everything for everyone and having all the answers weakens it massively.

We can draw a line and focus only on protecting women. Hearing the voices of women, getting the need for refuges and therapy etc funded better. Fighting for harsher sentences for men commuting these crimes. Challenging the reporting in MSM that refer to these men as otherwise loving or claim it’s a tragedy that took three lives, when really it’s a man murdering a woman and her daughter for not leaving him.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women, not for fixing men. It’s a form of victim blaming to feed into the rhetoric that women have to care men who are violent or that we have to do the work of fixing them. We don’t. Feminism was always about the needs of women.

@NiceGerbil

Thanks! Would point out that the first one you've cut out whole point-

'Totally valid discussion for other parts of the site. But men’s predatory behaviour, whether preying on women or men, is the responsibility of men. It’s for men to fix. '

And how a feminist can say that male predatory behaviour towards women is for men to fix and so shouldn't be discussed on this board is... Slightly baffling tbh!

I also didn’t say this, I said male predatory behaviour towards men wasn’t feminist remit.

You’re either not understanding what’s said, or deliberately misrepresenting it, which is manipulative.

What does the OP think? Some women prefer it because it seems more consensual.

Blood in gutters, think we at cross purposes.

I took it as leave it all to them = nothing happens.

If we don't fight then nothing happens.

So eg getting rape in marriage criminalised plus more importantly seen more as a crime in society. Was women fighting to fix something that men were doing.

Like I say at cross purposes I think.

I think it's just as bad and dislike these kind of gotchas. Although of course there are some different nuances if you change the sexes of participants, the principles that make me opposed to all prostitution, filmed or otherwise, remain the same.

It's a rubbish gotcha though as it's based on an assumption that women who care about women have zero interest in men who are in the same situation, to the point of being comfy with them somehow not being helped by anything that would help women.

Well, quite, but that's precisely what they are usually trying to demonstrate. See also: "Well, is it OK for women to pay men for sex?"

That's a totally different question though.

The porn question is about providing content that is almost entirely made with male viewers in mind. The industry is highly exploitative full stop. The majority of those exploited are female but that doesn't negate harm to men as well.

With paying for sex the male pays female Vs female pays male is the wrong comparison.

The right comparison is men paying women Vs men paying men.

(And with a general male interest in young).

Remember the stuff with vaz. Texts or emails and something about a young man or men (can't quite remember). Who'd not done that before and vaz looking forward to 'breaking in'.

I mean that's horrific.

Also remember the response. The drugs thing was condemned. The paying to 'break in' a bloke or blokes doing it for money. The response was. It's his private business nothing to do with anyone else.

Breaking in FFS.

So the correct comparison is important.

Yes, I know there's a lot to discuss about the various manifestations of the sex industry, and I do agree with what you say, but the bottom line for me is that I believe consent to sex cannot be bought. For me, although there are other important discussions to have, that is a firm principle and it doesn't matter whether anyone involved is a man or a woman or whether the sex is being filmed or not. It's not a different question from that perspective.

No I agree.

The problem then comes with the worryingly common view with men esp certain types that transactional applies all the time with men women and sex. Generally citing a very narrow and strange view of het relationships. And with a tendency to use couples with much older b rich men, and v young women as examples of this universal truth.