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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

University of Edinburgh

54 replies

Maskless · 04/11/2021 09:05

From Shereen Benjamin, who teaches at the University of Edinburgh, on the repercussions of holding views critical of gender identity ideology:

"It feels like very dangerous territory indeed, and marks a new phase in what's already becoming a dystopic nightmare in many universities.

Where I am, University of Edinburgh, gender identity ideology is taught in many disciplines as unassailable truth. As one of the few academics who refuses to teach it in that way, I have the Staff Pride Network tailing all my lectures and publications and 'reporting' me to my head of school and to editors of collections I've published in.

I'm in my 50s, I'm a pretty middle-ranking and unexceptional senior lecturer, I've got as far as I'm ever going to get, so I can take the hit. And there's been quite some hit - I've been quietly dropped from teaching gender and education which is one of my specialisms, and put on to other non-specialist things like teaching research methods, because it's too much trouble to have me teaching about gender. I should say, when I do teach about gender and education, it's in the most neutral way possible: I explain that there are different ways to think about sex and gender, and (in a school of education) I explain the different implications of those ways of thinking for what happens in schools, and I encourage students to engage with the evidence and come to their own defensible positions. This, I'm told, is 'denying trans existence' and it makes trans students and their allies feel 'incredibly unsafe'.

Most academics are now younger than me. They might be seeking promotion, or their first permanent contract (because academics are now on precarious contracts for years if not decades). In that position, they have to toe the line and teach gender identity ideology as dogma, or teach and research something else. And give those of us known to be critical a very wide berth - I have colleagues who won't be seen with me on campus in case they're targeted by association.

We're getting to the point where an ideology which doesn't have much of an evidence base is being promoted as unassailable truth on university campuses. Universities should be the places where new ideologies can be robustly examined in teaching, research and public engagement. Instead, universities are turning into the engine rooms of gender identity ideology, promoting to the next generation that the ideology is beyond question, and that there are indeed some views that can't be questioned. I find this very, very scary.

Kathleen's resignation will embolden the bullies. I say that not as any criticism of Kathleen - she's faced three years of this now, always with dignity and immense courage, and I have nothing but admiration for her. What should now happen is that managers in other universities known to have a problem - and mine certainly know we have a problem - face up to it, cut their ties with Stonewall and Advance HE, and act to protect feminist academics from harassment rather than trot out warm words about how much they value academic freedom whilst giving bullies free rein to bully. But I can't see that happening.

What should also happen is that UCU wakes up to its responsibilities to protect academic freedom, and the employment rights of feminist academics. That's not about to happen either. Dangerous territory indeed."

OP posts:
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 04/11/2021 09:20

Understandable and very dispiriting. I can't think what's going on in the upper echelons of UCU and its rank and file.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/11/2021 09:24

It is literally a modern day witch hunt Sad Angry

sydenhamhiller · 04/11/2021 09:30

@MrsOvertonsWindow

It is literally a modern day witch hunt Sad Angry
My goodness. Yes, a good analogy.
Igmum · 04/11/2021 09:33

So sorry OP. I hope the tide is turning but worry that it will be universities last. Some areas are far too well entrenched

candycane222 · 04/11/2021 09:36

Who is telling these youngsters they are "incredibly unsafe"? Why do they think that? Obviously no-one is safe, and possibly women and trans women less safe even than men and trans men. But this appears to be extra "unsafeness" on top of life as a student generally.

What do they mean by "unsafe" exactly? it's heard so often.

I realise I am derailing your thread OP so everyone can feel free to ignore me, but I've been wondering about this for a while.

I fear they may be stuck in social media rabbit holes which are telling them they are in real danger. But I'm not sure what the danger is? (apart perhaps from those very social media rabbit holes, which might be harming their mental health?)

As I said, don't want to derail, but if anyone can point me to a resource where this is explained directly rather than just alluded to all the time, I'd be very grateful.

TheMarzipanDildo · 04/11/2021 09:41

I’m a student at Edinburgh. I don’t take any feminist/ gender modules because I don’t think I could handle my rage Sad and I’m a coward. It’s really sad because it’s my area of interest.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 04/11/2021 09:52

I'm the same, Marzipan - was supposed to start this year and bailed because I just can't face the aggro of arguing about sex, which is integral to my research.

Stuff Edinburgh - if I'm a student I want to hear all sides and be taught to use my critical thinking skills, spot bias and become a better thinker.

I'd love to have one of Shereen Benjamin's lectures.

OP where did she publish this letter?

Cailin66 · 04/11/2021 10:03

What is the source for the first post please.

MimiDaisy11 · 04/11/2021 10:10

Who is telling these youngsters they are "incredibly unsafe"? Why do they think that

It’s just a minority though it can feel like a majority opinion. I remember a few years ago they did a poll at freshers week and most people were against wearing badges saying their gender.

OvaHere · 04/11/2021 10:12

@candycane222

Who is telling these youngsters they are "incredibly unsafe"? Why do they think that? Obviously no-one is safe, and possibly women and trans women less safe even than men and trans men. But this appears to be extra "unsafeness" on top of life as a student generally.

What do they mean by "unsafe" exactly? it's heard so often.

I realise I am derailing your thread OP so everyone can feel free to ignore me, but I've been wondering about this for a while.

I fear they may be stuck in social media rabbit holes which are telling them they are in real danger. But I'm not sure what the danger is? (apart perhaps from those very social media rabbit holes, which might be harming their mental health?)

As I said, don't want to derail, but if anyone can point me to a resource where this is explained directly rather than just alluded to all the time, I'd be very grateful.

The book The Coddling of the American Mind is a decent resource. It's a few years old now and is about US campus culture but of course that is where much of this originated and has been imported.

It's a good read and attempts to answer some of the questions you raise.

www.amazon.co.uk/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0241308356?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The book started off as an article in 2015 which drew so much attention the authors then wrote the book.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

Livelifeinthebuslane · 04/11/2021 10:15

Lots of people (probably more women than men just because of our experiences of being female) feel unsafe because of things that have happened to them - violence, abuse, bullying, developmental trauma, and are projecting these feelings into external current things rather than recognising they are old feelings within themselves. Not saying there is no current threat to them at all, but for most their feelings are largely disproportionate to what is happening right now.

littlbrowndog · 04/11/2021 11:20

Edinburgh university first admitted women to study medicine

This is what happened to them. Seems the same as now

Laycock had suggested that women seeking medical careers might be "basely inclined" or might be "Magdalenes".[definition needed] The Times had wondered why he might not equally be concerned about male students. Robert Christison had questioned the validity of the belief that women patients would want women doctors, his own enquiries leading him to believe the opposite to be true. He concluded his argument by saying "Become Midwives, not doctors!"

It was Christison's influence that saw many faculty staff who had initially been supportive of the women turn away from teaching them throughout the rest of 1870. A growing proportion of the male students began to be offensive and insolent, shutting doors in the women's faces, crowding into seats that they usually sat in, bursting into "horse laughs and howls" whenever the women approached.

Jex-Blake later wrote that it was "as if a conspiracy had been formed to make our position as uncomfortable as might be". She catalogued the abuse: her doorbell was "wrenched off" and her nameplate damaged five times; a Catherine wheel was attached to her door; smoke was blown in their faces; filthy letters were sent; they were waylaid in quiet streets; obscenities were shouted at them in public.

Edith Pechey, in a letter to The Scotsman, also spoke of being followed in the streets and having "the foulest epithets", such as "whore", shouted at her.[3]

Friends and supporters believed that some of the professors were deliberately inciting the students to behave in this way. The women began to take precautions, and only walking around campus as a group but none of them were prepared for the events that took place on Friday 18 November 1870.

BloodinGutters · 04/11/2021 11:37

@Livelifeinthebuslane

Lots of people (probably more women than men just because of our experiences of being female) feel unsafe because of things that have happened to them - violence, abuse, bullying, developmental trauma, and are projecting these feelings into external current things rather than recognising they are old feelings within themselves. Not saying there is no current threat to them at all, but for most their feelings are largely disproportionate to what is happening right now.
I think there is a very real every day threat to all women (transmen included) from men (including transwomen). That’s not projection, that’s fact based on crime stats.

There is no threat to anyone from many of us knowing biological sex is real and anybodies thoughts on any subject do not pose a threat to anyone.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 04/11/2021 11:39

That's the Edinburgh 7, little?

The male students let sheep and goats into the exam hall when the women were sitting their finals, I think? And they never graduated, but did go on to work in women's health?

Interesting seeing the same techniques are used against female academics who don't realise they need to shut up.

LobsterNapkin · 04/11/2021 11:55

I don't think actual risk of assault has anything to do with these kids feeling "undafe".

What they mean is they feel uncomfortable questioning the assumptions in their thinking.

I no longer have any patience for it. They need to be told they aren't up to university.

BloodinGutters · 04/11/2021 12:04

@LobsterNapkin

I don't think actual risk of assault has anything to do with these kids feeling "undafe".

What they mean is they feel uncomfortable questioning the assumptions in their thinking.

I no longer have any patience for it. They need to be told they aren't up to university.

I agree. But I disagree with the pp saying that feeling unsafe is just projection. I expect plenty women find an outlet for very real and valid feelings of being unsafe in gender ideology, because it’s easier than face the reality of how unsafe we are. But the fact that women are unsafe is real. And it matters especially with transmen and non binary women who are unconsciously, or otherwise, using gender ideology to escape from the very real threat men pose. Feeling unsafe isn’t just because of old feelings, it’s material reality. Blaming it on gender critical thoughts is projection, but being unsafe isn’t. And I think the distinction matters.

I had a really abusive childhood. I had ptsd and therapy for it. I had hyper-vigilance as a result. But it wasn’t a maladaptive response, hyper-vigilance is a normal response to living in a world with such extreme threat posed by male violence and misogyny. I think suggesting that obviously these people are not unsafe isn’t helpful, because the female ones are very unsafe, that’s very real, it’s just the threat is from men not gender critical thoughts.

OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg · 04/11/2021 12:12

“Unsafe” seems to mean “disagreed with and I don’t know how to handle that” these days 🙄

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/11/2021 12:18

I feel that pain.

Whitefire · 04/11/2021 12:25

@OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg

“Unsafe” seems to mean “disagreed with and I don’t know how to handle that” these days 🙄
Yes "unsafe" is about hurty feelings, it isn't about a risk of physical harm.
Whitefire · 04/11/2021 12:30

but none of them were prepared for the events that took place on Friday 18 November 1870.

Had to go and Google that.

littlbrowndog · 04/11/2021 12:33

Yes the Edinburgh 7. Same tactics. Just said a bit different now. The students now say they feel unsafe so they can hound women that way

Same stuff.

BloodinGutters · 04/11/2021 12:35

Just to add, I think the idea that people feeling unsafe are definitely not unsafe at all feeds into the idea that we are all so ‘privileged’. And I think that feeds into gender ideology. The idea women are so privileged that we must recognise and apologise for our privilege over transwomen.

I agree that no one is unsafe because of thoughts. But women, whether pro gender ideology or gender critical are very unsafe still. Especially young women at university for the first time. And the manipulation of where that threat comes from is part of propping up gender ideology.

I think it’s an important step to move away from that, to identify who is unsafe and where the threat comes from, rather than just down play feelings of being unsafe by saying obviously no one is unsafe.

littlbrowndog · 04/11/2021 12:36

They weren’t allowed to graduate

Other women had joined their classes, some doctors had taught them gladly, and supporters had formed a General Committee for Securing a Complete Medical Education for Women with a membership of over 300, including Charles Darwin. Yet in the end they lost the battle to graduate. In 1873 the Court of Session supported the University's right to refuse the women degrees. They also ruled, by a majority, that the women should not have been admitted in the first place. This defeat and their other struggles motivated most of them to continue, not only for personal reasons, but as part of a wider cause.

NoThankYouSaurus · 04/11/2021 12:42

@littlbrowndog Thank you for posting those historic accounts. Might send it to 2 female members of my family who are studying medicine at Edinburgh, and completely, incomprehensibly believers in gender identities.

GoodieMoomin · 04/11/2021 12:45

@candycane222 I'll add Haidt's other book to @OvaHere's recommendation. There are lots of lectures and interviews on YouTube and the audiobooks are great if you prefer that

www.hive.co.uk/Product/Jonathan-Haidt/The-Righteous-Mind--Why-Good-People-are-Divided-by-Politics-and-Religion/12769026