Evidence from film, plays, etc of the historical background of casual accepable male violence against transwomen

[seethesuninwintertime]

I am trying to engage more effectively locally and to redirect attention to the real issues transwomen were trying to overcome pre GRA in the hope of highlighting the modern attacks on actual women for what they are i.e. misogny. I'm a great believer that if you gather data and put it on a timeline then it will confess its secrets and show its patterns.

Happy to look at Gender studies literature i.e. stuff written by people I don't agree with.

My tentative hypothesis is that transexuals were a legitimate target of male mockery and male violence until very recently. What I wonder if whether there was always misogyny behind the abuse of transexuals and whether that misogyny has now changed. I wonder if the abuse that was casually directed at transexuals has now been partially redirected at gender critical women but it's the same old thing. I wonder whether all that hatred needed somewhere to go once it became less acceptable to simply mock transsexuals. I dont' know.

Off the top of my head I can think of:
"She-man" in Sopranos series 2
Crocodile Dundee scene where he grabs the transexual's genitals and everyone laughs and mocks
"Rent" (which had a bizarre line about the transsexual being a better woman than other women).
Rocky Horror Show which was how most people born in the 1970s were introduced to transvestism/transexuality.

But someone must have done a phd in this - in fact loads of phds must have been done. so I don't need to reinvent the wheel

In terms of my bona fides, I am a regular but frequently name change.

I have never understood the appeal of the LadyBoys! But it is interesting that just the idea of someone who presents as a feminine woman but is a man, is apparently fascinating and endlessly entertaining. They're hugely successful.

Different culture. Whatever it might have been has surely been smashed to pieces by massive exploitation by Western men.

As with... Well I mean it's massive well known exploitation.

Not seen this topic on TV in particular. Who finds it fascinating? I'd think mainly men. Just reminds me of Alan partridge tbh.
Not seen any progs.

Off on a tangent now, but current treatment of trans characters, I've noticed a common theme of the character's mum being hostile or denying, refusing to use new name etc.
Emmerdale, Holby city, Doctors. So middle aged women to blame again!

[quote dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby]Just to muddy the waters, where does this stuff fit in ? Who would typically be in the audience?

www.ladyboysofbangkok.co.uk/fantasy-ladyboys-2021-fantasy-tour-the-showgirls-return-with-a-uk-tour/

How is this different (lol) from the Chippendales in the 90's which was mainly something (some) women would pay to see?
Wow they still exist.....
www.ents24.com/uk/tour-dates/the-chippendales[/quote]
Someone at my work went to a similar show for her hen do. I assumed it was the sort of audience you see at drag shows, mostly gay men and groups of women.

You would think these disgusted/violent men would be the object of today's ire but they are not - women are.

What’s interesting is back then almost 100% of the trans guests on the shows were gay men who had supposedly ‘tricked’ straight guys into relationships. With the exception of one woman who was dating a straight woman who had no idea. There were loads of these shows and not a single trans male dating a lesbian.

This might be the topic we aren’t allowed to talk about but I think in the 80s and 90s “crossdressing” for sexual kicks was regarded as a separate thing from “gender dysphoria” leading to “a sex change”. And drag acts like Lily Savage or Dame Edna were something different again.

“ You would think these disgusted/violent men would be the object of today's ire but they are not - women are.

What’s interesting is back then almost 100% of the trans guests on the shows were gay men who had supposedly ‘tricked’ straight guys into relationships. With the exception of one woman who was dating a straight woman who had no idea. There were loads of these shows and not a single trans male dating a lesbian.“

That is fascinating.

I really find this constant reference to straight men being 'tricked' unhelpful and just weird tbh.

We're talking England/ UK still for comments when it comes to people we know etc? Like (sorry just most recent one!) Kwik.

Yes there are a sadly large minority of men in society who verbally abuse / attack/ beat up/ sexually assault others if they feel like it. For those men I mean if you're that way inclined then I imagine plenty of people are fair game..Women. Girls. Men they see as 'not real men'. IE disabled, diffident, something taken as effeminate etc etc.

It's not secret (but maybe not known in general?) that-

Plenty of men who see themselves as straight go looking for sex with men.
That it's not unusual for those men to have stuff going on. That leads them to hurt the men they pull. Violate, aggressively dominate, humiliate, kick the shit out of.

This is not uncommon. And we're not talking minor stuff. And no. Most men don't report. Police attitudes to gay/ bi men experiencing this with a man they met in a gay club are just as shit as women's. I mean. Don't bother reporting etc.

There is no doubt that there is risk, harm, I mean a pile of awful stuff to tackle. Something you would imagine stonewall et al would be big on...

Trans males do not go to straight pubs clubs etc.

Let alone try to pull straight men.

FFS that's a great way to get kicked in. Murdered.

I don't get these posts at all.

Yes - as I suspected.
Look at the Crocodile Dundee scene. The men are all laughing and mocking. But look bottom right - there is a woman being indignant, “policing” the men and comforting the trans woman.

Croc Dundee I mean what a film years ago. USA? With male lead aus.

Iirc Mick is confused. Obv out of line to touch and in film (USA etc) was scripted as joke. I mean it was decades ago?

He checks. He wasn't expecting it. He is not aggressive or iirc judgemental. Angry. Horrified.

He does not beat 7 shades of shit out of them.

I don't get why talk about these things.

OP what's the thing you want to look at, the thread has gone in so many directions!

BTW I've known several straight men who have confessed to me (under severe influence) that they enjoy transexual porn 'but aren't gay'. Its definitely a thing. I'm sure at one point 'men who have sex with men' in other words men who don't see themselves as gay/bi and often married was a big concern for HIV organisations. I'm not up to date on that issue now. I worked with a man who volunteered for every out of town event he could because he liked to go cruising (married with 3 kids). He had a few interesting ideas too.
People tell you a lot when you're the only gay in the office!

Pigeon hello!

Your posts sounded v familiar/ resonated with me.

I remember who laughed at Cupid stunt heaving massive false boobs and spreading legs, 3 Ronnies worm turned, Monty python when some 'dressed as women' etc etc.

My dad. Pissed himself. My mum didn't laugh. I felt confused and uncomfy and didn't know why as it was obviously hilarious...

At the same time on other/ the same progs. Sexy women dancing sexy. Loads of sexism really overt. Etc etc. Bottom line- all by men for men...

I worked in hiv/aids prevention tracking etc for govt in mid 90s.

Men who have sex with men was important because studies/ stats etc showed that men who had sex with men. Sometimes/ often/ unprotected etc. Would not take advice etc for gay/ bisexual men as anything to do with them.

I also went to lesbian bars/ clubs back in the day. Uni I lived with a bunch of lesbian women and I enjoyed going out with them.

Why? They were mates. Night out without blokes hassling.

Back then anyone the door staff thought were... Not there because same sex attracted. Would have to be vouched for massively. Because straight people esp women v keen to get into gay places.

In the clubs that I went to the gay men/ lesbian women spaces inside were totally separate and single sex. Intrusion was NOT welcome.

There was a pretty good episode of Lewis called 'Life Born Of Fire', I think, about a strongly religious gay man who transitions in order to comply with the perceived demands of his faith. He loses that faith and falls into complete despair when his lover no longer desires him - his lover is gay, he is now a woman - and eventually (the lover) commits suicide, setting in train the central character's murderous revenge upon the leaders of the religious community who emotionally blackmailed them into using GRS as a conversion therapy passport to acceptance into the faith.

Central character played by Rachael Stirling, I think?

(of course, you'll have to put up with that idiot Lawrence Fox...)

I think somebody mentioned above, but Angel in 'Rent' was a cross dresser rather than trans - we see the character as both male and 'female', referred to as both 'he' and 'she' - and the quote was at his funeral: "she walked right up to him and said, 'I'm more of a man than you'll ever be, and more of a woman than you'll ever get'". He had actually gone up to a 'skinhead' who was harassing him and said it, it wasn't saying she was a better woman than anyone.

Just wanted to add that in, mostly because I'm a big fan of 'Rent'. 😊

I’ve watched some old episodes lately and one of the staples of his early shows involved transexuals coming onto the show to reveal to their male partners that they’re really a man. The duped partner’s reactions are split. Half the time they react with pure disgust, and the other half immediately try to physically attack the trans person."

You would think these disgusted/violent men would be the object of today's ire but they are not - women are.

If tricked into sex, these are victims of rape by deception. Stonewall are campaigning to make that not a crime but they have not succeeded in removing rape victims rights yet.

You'll gain an insight into the violence and threats against women and feminists today by looking into cases like Ed Gein, Dennis Rader, Jerry Brudos, Russell Williams, David Chester Warfield, Stephen Terrance Wood, Philip Tarver, Roderick Deakin-White, Gerald Matovu, Gary Dean Marie, Wolfgang Schmidt, Douglas R Perry, Reginald Arthurall, Bradley Robert Edwards, Steven Hayes, Mark Karen Jones, Steve Wright, Hadden Clark, William Jaggs, Craig Hudson, Colin Coates, Wesley Lorelei Bailey, Dennis Woolbert, Robert Westmore, Tanis Wolf, Mark Marcia Walker, Kyle Ashley Watts, David Challenor . . .

Some of those men have inspired fiction but not much of it made recently. South Park's Strong Woman competition is the most recent satire I can think of.

Looked back to find old episodes of what.

Jerry Springer?

That was USA and famously loads of actors.

We are UK and JS was... Actors.

This idea that for years there's straight men being 'duped' by TW IRL just sounds like drivel to me tbh. Esp if apparently dating and no idea?

Come on.

What is this thread actually about? I'm confused tbh!

@MrsMadderRose

The thing with 70s-style comedy drag though, which you get in Python as well as Les Dawson, Ronnie Two Ronnies etc as well as Edna Everage, is that the joke is kind of on the men for being such terrible women. Les Dawson as the gossipy neighbour is funny because what you're seeing is a man who knows he doesn't make a convincing woman. Even down to his unrealistic, not properly attached boobs. Pantomime dames are similar. The whole point is that it's a man and that is what you are enjoying - his failure to really look like or be a woman and he is on board with that.

Older-style drag was often similar - lots of ribald gay jokes referring to penises etc. It wasn't about being female in any way, it seemed more like an OTT expression of male gay "femininity".

I don't think that's is the same thing at all as film and TV portrayals of transwomen who take themselves seriously as "women" - whether positive or negative. Sitcom/sketch show comedy drag also IIRC didn't make the "man in women's clothes" a target for being that. He/she was just a comic creation. Whether or not that's considered problematic in some way I don't know.

You get similar in reverse when sitcom or sketch show characters are women pretending to be men. It's funny because it's not convincing, eg "Bob" in Blackadder.

I think this is really totally different than most modern drag. In the instances where there is one main persona that the performer uses, it's still similar to other comedy or vaudeville performers who had a comedic persona they developed. In the case of performers who played various roles, like Monty Python, it's part of the sketch comedy tradition where a few actors play all the roles.

It's not like it was ever only a male thing either. Female comedians today that do this kind of performance also switch roles quite often.

Of course the sense of a male playing a woman, and a female playing a man, are quite different, but they have to be, given the physical realities.

This is quite difference than a drag queen show which has at times developed this rather odd connection to identity issues in ways entertainment generally doesn't.

@Pigeontown

BTW I've known several straight men who have confessed to me (under severe influence) that they enjoy transexual porn 'but aren't gay'. Its definitely a thing. I'm sure at one point 'men who have sex with men' in other words men who don't see themselves as gay/bi and often married was a big concern for HIV organisations. I'm not up to date on that issue now. I worked with a man who volunteered for every out of town event he could because he liked to go cruising (married with 3 kids). He had a few interesting ideas too. People tell you a lot when you're the only gay in the office!

Lots of men who engage in homosexual sex at that time and were high risk for AIDS didn't consider themselves gay. Some were just fooling themselves, married etc but also having encounters with other men, but many were also prostitutes.

It didn't matter what they called themselves, public health wanted them to take in the messages about testing etc.

While this is an interesting discussion and I’m finding many posts informative, I think the OP’s hypothesis is fundamentally flawed in thinking that the hatred, contempt and even violence that women, and currently particularly GC women, are experiencing is somehow newly-directed hatred having to be channelled “elsewhere” because a previous target for it is now largely a sacred caste.

IME the kind of men who demonstrate these behaviours have always had more than enough hate and bile to go round, and women who dared to speak up on any subject have always been on the receiving end of it, regardless of who else such men may have been targeting at the same time.

I take your point titosaurus though you have in your summary made my op sound more fully formed than it was.

But there is something worth looking at, this I know :)

I think the history of transphobia is interesting but I think this post is missing a pretty core point which is that a lot of the GC narrative actually echoes the old transphobic films, which I think is why so many trans people/why TRAs esp react very defensively and strongly. For example, there's a big ongoing narrative that presents trans people as deviants, as predators, as versions of Ed Gein, who only dress up as women to hurt women. That's a narrative that is very common in GC space - a man in a dress can only be doing that for predatory reasons. So I think a lot of TRA types have been raised with that being a stick used to beat them. Of course they have an angry defensive twitch when a GC woman raises that exact same stick.

Basically, many tropes that were created by heterosexual men are now used by GC women in trying to express their stance and it therefore gets a very negative reaction and I think that should be recognized at least.

Reading through these quickly there seem to be a few themes. There are

• 'real' transexuals (i.e. depictions of what we understand/understood as transexual)
• transvestites (Rocky Horror)
• men dressing as women for a laff (i.e. Gloria in It Ain't Half Hot Mum - Gloria was always offended when called names by SM Shutup and I think quite clear that he was a heterosexual male)
• men dressing as women for other reasons but being very clear they are men (Klinger)
• psychopaths who dress as women and/or transexuals who are depicted as psychopaths
• identities that we now consider 'transgender' and of the rainbow.