Evidence from film, plays, etc of the historical background of casual accepable male violence against transwomen

[seethesuninwintertime]

I am trying to engage more effectively locally and to redirect attention to the real issues transwomen were trying to overcome pre GRA in the hope of highlighting the modern attacks on actual women for what they are i.e. misogny. I'm a great believer that if you gather data and put it on a timeline then it will confess its secrets and show its patterns.

Happy to look at Gender studies literature i.e. stuff written by people I don't agree with.

My tentative hypothesis is that transexuals were a legitimate target of male mockery and male violence until very recently. What I wonder if whether there was always misogyny behind the abuse of transexuals and whether that misogyny has now changed. I wonder if the abuse that was casually directed at transexuals has now been partially redirected at gender critical women but it's the same old thing. I wonder whether all that hatred needed somewhere to go once it became less acceptable to simply mock transsexuals. I dont' know.

Off the top of my head I can think of:
"She-man" in Sopranos series 2
Crocodile Dundee scene where he grabs the transexual's genitals and everyone laughs and mocks
"Rent" (which had a bizarre line about the transsexual being a better woman than other women).
Rocky Horror Show which was how most people born in the 1970s were introduced to transvestism/transexuality.

But someone must have done a phd in this - in fact loads of phds must have been done. so I don't need to reinvent the wheel

In terms of my bona fides, I am a regular but frequently name change.

I just want to say that the allegedly “problematic” episode of the IT Crowd is the internet in a box episode (“The Speech”) and the bastards have cancelled the whole episode as a result.
The transwoman was I thought portrayed as the ideal match for the lonely Douglas Reynholm (the Matt Berry character). The transwoman told Douglas but he misheard, and as a result got serious, had a glimpse of happiness and was sadder and lonelier at the end of the episode.
So I saw the episode as including a portrayal of transphobia And The Internet In A Box.

“Delusion and deception are often mocked and/or punished both in RL and in film/TV. So while I totally agree there is anti-trans stuff in lots of film and tv, it needs separating out from that.”

That’s really interesting.

And thank you wildfart for that PhD link. Again that piece is focussed on the challenges faced by trans people. Nothing wrong with that of course.

A really worthwhile thing to study (so it’s possibly already been done) would be to examine the depiction of women around these transexual/transvestite/transgender characters.

Are the women depicted as hostile? Or mocking? Or are they protective - and is their protection critical to helping the trans person get beyond mockery to some better state?

There’s another PhD in that (if the supervisor hasn’t been fired.....)

I don't think attitudes of men in general have changed at all towards those they see as cross dressing men.

Men who breach the very strict masculinity norms have always been a matter for jokes/ uncomfortable feelings/ verbal and physical aggression by straight men.

This has always been and is based in homophobia which in turn is related to misogny. It's essentially outrageous and very wrong even obscene for males to adopt any characteristics of femininity.

So I think your OP is a bit wonky really.

There was a really good drama - Jimmy McGovern I think, accused maybe? with Sean bean and Stephen graham, where Sean bean is a transvestite, graham is married, they have an affair but Graham’s character can’t cope with anyone finding out and someone ends up murdered…maybe the wife?? I remember thinking it was quite well explored - Graham’s character’s internalised homophobia, and how that played out. Although my recollections are a bit sketchy.

'Rocky Horror Show which was how most people born in the 1970s were introduced to transvestism/transexuality.'

I was born in early 1970s and not my experience.

I'm a massive RH fan first saw it at age 8 which was too young by parenting standards even then obv!

And you know Frank is an alien so not really the same anyway!

I'd say Marilyn.

Assume not including drag eg Kenny Everett? That aside. I mean 80s was a free for all esp in music etc.

What was the name of that awesome weird fella with the masks and frocks? Erm. Will look.

Also will read thread!

“So I think your OP is a bit wonky really.”

That’s the trouble with testing out your thoughts on mumsnet. By the time you start to figure stuff out on page 5 your OP looks half-baked :)

I agree with what you say. But how do you explain men specifically attacking women for not accepting twaw?

This has always been and is based in homophobia which in turn is related to misogny. It's essentially outrageous and very wrong even obscene for males to adopt any characteristics of femininity

This is also why men are loving the trans movement. They get to air their misogyny with a pat on the pack, whilst being able to mentally separate themselves from those of their their own sex class who wish to perform femininity by shoving them into ours.

Ah Leigh Bowery.

Does he count? Here on the clothes show, utterly awesome!

Does he count?

It's all a bit apples and oranges really isn't it.

I mean with the likes of sigue sigue sputnik, Leigh, Steve strange etc etc on the TV. I'm not sure that it really sort of relates to things now does it?

a few examples that haven't been mentioned (I think)

Boys don't cry - about a transman
Some Like It Hot - plenty of crossdressing but not trans

@seethesuninwintertime

“So I think your OP is a bit wonky really.”

That’s the trouble with testing out your thoughts on mumsnet. By the time you start to figure stuff out on page 5 your OP looks half-baked :)

I agree with what you say. But how do you explain men specifically attacking women for not accepting twaw?

They're just bog standard misogynists. With a fun new apparently acceptable way to put the boot into women. Esp women who are a combo of. Saying no/ standing up for what they want/ feminists/ middle aged/ don't perform femininity to a greater or lesser extent in appearance or behaviour esp deference to men/ etc etc.

Women like that have never been liked. On a scale of pretty much subconscious to in your face hatred. For.. decades? Ever?

Eg powerful women in history / ones who knew stuff or spoke out. painted as grotesque. QE1 is a famous example. Also 'witches'. I mean loads of that for centuries.

Same old thing, new angle.

Loads of men in England since... Well as long as I know and before. Have been unsettled by displays of femininity. Still are. Some get violent. Always have.

Have you seen the naked civil servant?

It's a BRILLIANT film.

I'll find some links.

I think there is a much simpler explanation for the aggression straight males are currently directing towards GC women.
It is not redirected from their anger against TWs at all.
It is their original naked misogyny - but now it is socially approved and they can bask in the support of their woke bros and handmaidens as they scream the rape and death threats at women that they have always wanted to.

Wiki
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Naked_Civil_Servant_(film)

Don't read synopsis obv!

About a v famous man called Quentin crisp. His life.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quentin_Crisp

It's moving, raw, involving, gritty in parts and just... Brilliant. And real, crisp was alive when it was made - so assuming he was involved to some extent and based on his biography.

'Quentin Crisp introduces the film, saying that the decision to find someone else to play him was right as they are bound to do it better than he does. He claims "any film, even the worst, is at least better than real life."

Really highly acclaimed-

'For his performance, Hurt won the BAFTA for Best Actor in 1976 and the production also won the 1976 Prix Italia. The title of the book and the film (naked civil servant), is derived from his time working as a nude model in a government-funded art school.'

'In 2000, the film was placed fourth in a poll by industry professionals to find the BFI TV 100 of the 20th century, and was the highest ITV production on the list'.

It's brilliantly scripted. Acted. William hurt is amazing (always!).

Includes a lot about general male attitudes to femininity in men- which is a big part of homophobia.

that transexuals were a legitimate target of male mockery and male violence until very recently.

Is this a typo or something? You need to change it.

Oh interesting-

'TV Guide said the movie is remembered for "John Hurt's fine performance", and for the "controversy that arose when the film first aired on U.S. television...though it was not clear how many protestors had actually watched the film they were complaining about"'

With this stuff the pushing of cultural norms assumptions histories etc from other countries esp USA. Was irritating and is now infuriating.

What man would dress up as a woman just for X?
As if the obvious answer is NONE! Ever! Unthinkable!

But English men in large numbers will 'dress up as women' at the drop of a hat. Have done for yonks. Apparently on the continent it's a thing that is known and seen as a bit of a cultural oddity

Fact is we've always been... Well. Fops? In ye olden days? Men dressing up as women when we weren't allowed on stage. Panto dames. Drag all over telly when I was young. Dunno. Just. The cultural differences can't be ignored and often they seem to be with this and increasingly other issues.

Silence of the lambs (91?), featuring someone who is emphatically not transsexual, but rather Blanchard's other word...

OITNB wasnt the only women's prison series with a trans character, there was also one in bad girls, and one in wentworth

I may be totally wrong but didnt western cross dressing all begin in the theatre back in the not so distant mists of time when women weren't allowed on stage so men had to play the women's parts?

By the same token, women that wanted to act had to disguise themselves and play the men's parts?

There's Silence of The Lambs where "Buffalo Bill" is literally killing and skinning women to make himself a female body suit. And we see him posing with his penis tucked away.

Buffalo Bill/Jame Gumb isn't considered to be "transsexual" though - he "covets" being female and failed the psych tests for transition. Hence making the lady-suit.

The Crying Game has male attraction and revulsion to a transwoman as one of its central themes. It's a brilliant film on many levels. Some of those themes are also in Pose which streamed recently on Netflix I think, maybe BBC as well.

Speaking of pose, a timeline re the aids crisis might be interesting to include. Was there an especially noticeable increase in negative portrayal in media around the late eighties/early nineties, that passed as treatment became more successful?

OP are we talking about England, UK, English speaking...?

I only ask because like I say the cultural differences around all sorts of things are vast.

Even in the UK, England Wales Scotland NI things are different.

For me talking about England, attitudes history etc is easier as it's where I have been all my life. But even then. In eg 60s 70s it was very different in a small village somewhere to London. And even in London- very different by area and London is what 15 mile radius circle. Ish.

@BeyondShrinks

Speaking of pose, a timeline re the aids crisis might be interesting to include. Was there an especially noticeable increase in negative portrayal in media around the late eighties/early nineties, that passed as treatment became more successful?

Can't remember that we'll tbh.

It was seen very much as a gay man thing. And I remember stuff about catching but from early on it was known it was sex and also injecting drug users at risk.

As now, and it would be better obv to see what gay men who were adults then remember. The recent series covered it.

Certainly gay men were very visible then and while not exactly open. I mean you had loads of gay men (camp) on the telly since what 60s? And 70s all the gender bending stuff. 80s. So many gay male artists on TOTP. Marilyn, boy George, erasure, fgth. When was my beautiful launderette? V big film. And bronski beat small town boy. Awesome video great song. Pointed sharing apple with friends on train at end.

When I was young the TV including BBC iirc had public info ads about condoms. Loads of info all the time about how hiv transmitted. Condoms condoms condoms. Free at loads of places. HIV test places and push to get tested if unprotected penetrative sex- men and women iirc.

I worked in hiv for govt health in mid 90s and it was a very well established large dept. Tracking infection rates, cd4 counts in individuals, risk factors, targeted strategy to get info to high risk groups, loads of stuff about places to get needles etc.

The shock at the v young deaths of famous talented people was massive as well.

But- I was in London and straight. Although did end up in trade once by accident!! That's another thing. Gay dance scene massive really groundbreaking etc etc.

Just my personal memories.