Should we be careful what we wish for?

[Gosports]

I’m 100% GC and want to be pleased about the latest news, from the Times article published today (confused though it is) and the BBC article earlier this week as it feels like the tide might be turning.

However, I can’t help but wonder about the motives behind these small ripples of change. I don’t trust the government at all, and I wonder if this is a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? They have also proposed to curb judicial review and to limit our rights to protest so I can’t believe that they are at all concerned for young people confused about their gender, or lesbians abused by trans women. So why are they (or appear to be) supporting the GC movement. It can only be to gain more power in some respect, surely? And that worries me…

The litmus test I suspect. They realise the public tide is turning and also that there might be some dodgy dealings out there. They are stepping back from the issue but not in the long run towards women's rights.

Exactly - this can’t be the government standing up for women’s rights!

I think we need to dissent along several lines at the same time and this includes accepting some items and being wary of how they progress plus dissenting about the plans to restrict judicial review.

@Gosports

Exactly - this can’t be the government standing up for women’s rights!

It isn’t.

The majority of the general public want a safe world for everyone- trans people included. What they don’t want is an unfair situation where male sex offenders are locked in cells with women prisoners, where those who have gone through male puberty into male adulthood play contact sports against women, where women feel unsafe in changing rooms etc.

Most people want EVERYONE to have human rights and safe spaces. The government doesn’t want to do anything too unpopular (unless there’s money for their mates in it). They can see how Labour and the Lib Dems are faring by doggedly perusing TWAW at all costs and it’s not playing as well as activists believe.

This government won’t particularly do anything to benefit women but they can see the difference between vote winning ideas and vote losing ones.

I guess that’s it - they’re looking ahead and assuming the swing will be away from the trans activists. So it’s about votes (as usual), not concern for any particular group.

Which Times article are you talking about OP?

This one:
<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.md/2021.10.28-230329/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.md/2021.10.28-230329/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/urging-change-gender-criminalised-trans-rights-lgbtq-0vw7trcj2

So it’s about votes (as usual), not concern for any particular group.

Of course it's about votes. This is politics. Why would it be about anything else? Yes there will be a certain level of concern for those who are affected by transactivism, but ultimately what matters is getting the votes needed to stay in power.
That's why Tories generally do very well - they are pragmatic and look at the bigger picture (getting into and staying in power).
Parties like Labour etc are hopeless with all the purity spirals and infighting.

It really depends how you look at it. This could be thought of as a triumph of democracy (I.e, the government being forced to adapt their position to satisfy what they now perceive to be the will of the people). Does it matter that it’s all about votes if women are in a better position as a result?

I don’t know the answer to that question btw!

I think you're doing a slight disservice to some of the Tory MPs, especially the women. People such as Jacque Doyle Price have been prioritising women's issues for quite a long time (she oversaw a big push on postnatal care and women's health when she was at department of health). Patel is apparently genuinely personally furious about the Met's performance in the cases of Sarah Everard, Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman. Truss is, I think, genuinely GC in the sense that she absolutely doesn't believe you can change your sex, and understands why women particularly need single sex spaces. Younger Tory MPs such as Alicia Kearns and Laura Farris, while much less (or not at all) GC, talk a lot about violence against women. I know a lot of people on this board don't agree with Caroline Nokes on trans inclusion, for instance, but she was very very effective about raising women's concerns about homeworking, childcare, lack of representation etc during the lockdown period.

Their political analysis is not of the left and a lot of their solutions won't be the ones leftist or radfem women want, but I think they are genuinely feminists. It's a generational change, and a significant result of reaching a critical mass of women who are MPs or government office holders.

Thanks @PacificState - I’ll read more about the MPs you mention. That’s reassuring.

why are they (or appear to be) supporting the GC movement.

They can't be supporting it. Most of what has happened so far has been on their watch. So they may be making a few right noises now but the wholesale spread of the gender ideology in all walks of life (schools, councils, academia, prisons, judges, govt) has all been on their watch.

Not sure what is going on - but I am extremely cynical.

PacificState that is a fair point.

It's always about votes.
But I agree there are some principled women in the Conservative party.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

The litmus test I suspect. They realise the public tide is turning and also that there might be some dodgy dealings out there. They are stepping back from the issue but not in the long run towards women's rights.

Its a populist government.

They will do what is most popular with the public.

Thats not erasing women but equally feminism has pretty bad pr too.

I think a lot happened under the tories because of the nasty party label that follows them around combined with organisations being terrified of stonewall. The Denton strategy meant at lot happened under the radar.

That's changed in recent times. I also agree there are some tory mps who do care about women's rights.

I share your concerns and also feel cynical The woman who turned Stonewall away from its original agenda of protecting the rights of gay people and lesbians has been given a peerage.
Its not just that all of this has happened under a Tory government; they actively pushed for it.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

I think we need to dissent along several lines at the same time and this includes accepting some items and being wary of how they progress plus dissenting about the plans to restrict judicial review.

I agree with this, and I also agree with what @PacificState says.

Like many feminist women, I am profoundly uncomfortable that the party which best aligns with my feminist demands is the Conservative party. I'm aware that the philosophy underpinning their thinking is not the same as mine, so I see them as an ally/means to an end on this issue, as narrowly defined. I support trans rights and I can well believe this government won't. I'm not particularly signed up to the "anti-woke agenda" because there's a great deal of 'woke' I believe in.

For me it's a bit of an inverse Iraq war 2: that was a party I supported doing something i absolutely objected to, this is a party I don't support doing something I welcome.

We won't owe them anything for taking actions to protect women and children. No obligation of allegiance, no signing up for a wider programme. Speaking personally I will still not be a tory voter, although I understand women who have made that change. (That's not about me 'identifying as a labour voter', it's that the absolute biggest issues to me are still about the welfare state, education etc, which I think will only get the funding they need under a labour government.)

I agree also that the tories are broadly more pragmatic, which is why they're better at winning elections.

I think there is a risk of painting Tories as comic book villains. They are human beings with a particular set of beliefs.

Supporting policies which don't push the idea that humans can magically change sex is a pretty low bar that most people can pass.

The real question is why anyone thought the emperor was wearing clothes in the first place, not why some Tories will admit he isn't.

They can't be supporting it. Most of what has happened so far has been on their watch.

I think that's more about negligence than agreeing with the nutters; and a bit of wanting to be seen as nice so agreeing to what seemed like harmless tokenism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have become completely unhinged on this issue and that goes to the very top, Starmer's awful comments on Marr. I've been a party member and activist for decades but I quit over this, horrified and saddened when the female leadership candidates signed that pledge calling WPUK a 'hate group' and dismayed when the only candidate who didn't go the whole hog there is now coming out with the same misogynist crap. It feels like Invasion of the Body Snatchers to be honest.

@SweetGrapes

why are they (or appear to be) supporting the GC movement.

They can't be supporting it. Most of what has happened so far has been on their watch. So they may be making a few right noises now but the wholesale spread of the gender ideology in all walks of life (schools, councils, academia, prisons, judges, govt) has all been on their watch.

Not sure what is going on - but I am extremely cynical.

But central government doesn't, for example, control what happens in academia. They have policy and make laws via the parliamentary process. They haven't made any changes to the law (of which I am aware) that are enabling this. The GRA uses unhelpfully unclear language but that precedes both this government and the recent furore around gender and self ID.

I get that it's hard to swallow that the Tories are standing up for women's rights more than the Left but all the evidence suggests that is the case.

@donquixotedelamancha

I think there is a risk of painting Tories as comic book villains. They are human beings with a particular set of beliefs.

Supporting policies which don't push the idea that humans can magically change sex is a pretty low bar that most people can pass.

The real question is why anyone thought the emperor was wearing clothes in the first place, not why some Tories will admit he isn't.

Yes. It is still astonishing how this ideology has gripped the English-speaking democracies all at the same time.

@IvyTwines2

Labour and the Lib Dems have become completely unhinged on this issue and that goes to the very top, Starmer's awful comments on Marr. I've been a party member and activist for decades but I quit over this, horrified and saddened when the female leadership candidates signed that pledge calling WPUK a 'hate group' and dismayed when the only candidate who didn't go the whole hog there is now coming out with the same misogynist crap. It feels like Invasion of the Body Snatchers to be honest.

This too. I will never forget my shock in Labour Leadership debate when Lisa Nandy answered a question with: 'If we start from the point of view that TWAW.....' .WPUK are a transphobic hate group blah blah...

I think the Tories including Theresa May have clearly fallen for this to some extent but the Tory Party is the only one which will allow its MPs/party members to hold their own views on this.
There is no pressure to agree that TWAW and deny biological reality like there is in Labour, LibDem, SNP, Green etc.
The self-id thing was stopped on Johnson's watch after all.

@Gosports

I’m 100% GC and want to be pleased about the latest news, from the Times article published today (confused though it is) and the BBC article earlier this week as it feels like the tide might be turning.

However, I can’t help but wonder about the motives behind these small ripples of change. I don’t trust the government at all, and I wonder if this is a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? They have also proposed to curb judicial review and to limit our rights to protest so I can’t believe that they are at all concerned for young people confused about their gender, or lesbians abused by trans women. So why are they (or appear to be) supporting the GC movement. It can only be to gain more power in some respect, surely? And that worries me…

Because they're Conservatives, and GC is a conservative/right wing movement