DD and non binary friends and pronouns

[IAAP]

I’ve always had the POV all of my D.C. are welcome to be themselves - I don’t mind who they choose as a partner and if say DD liked a girl - I didn’t have a problem with that.

DD has never ‘liked’ anyone this far but upon her return to school last year felt pressured to ‘declare’ her sexuality : gender etc she refused and said she hasn’t made up her mind yet.

Of her group of female friends - 4 have declared themselves non binary.
I’ve told DD that there is a biological sex in her dna, her sex organs - that surgery can remove, her gender which means what she thinks she is according to someone else’s description and then her sexuality which is who she is attached to.

Lots of her friends are changing their names and pronouns. One friend has changed her name, 3 times in 6 weeks - huffing and puffing when people don’t get it right - she has declared herself non binary and declared herself gender neutral and insists on they / them and corrected everyone around her should they fail to get the latest ‘change’ right. I took DD and her friends out for the day yesterday - omg it was dire. One unfortunate guy happened to say very nicely ‘what can I get you ladies’ at the cafe - she launched into a tirade about how she wasn’t female. On the way in to the cinema queue for the disabled toilet - number of females toilet x20 most free - she refused to use them. She went into a disabled toilet x1 and had a queue of 6 people waiting for it when she came out ……25 minutes later. DD was appalled as ‘they are not disabled’ friend says ‘I’m standing up for my rights’.

DD says she is finding her arguments tedious but wants a good push back on non binary. I said maybe think about non binary friend (who has declared she is a lesbian) and conversations over would she, as a lesbian, have sex with a trans woman who has just self Id as a women. Dd doesn’t want to be accused as a trans person phone - where can she go for unbiased discussion and to get more facts (teen friendly) that don’t push this all men are women if they say it? Dd thinks a man can become a women by a process of surgery and gender reassignment but that doesn’t change the biological sex only the outward appearance so you can look like a women. If gave her the rage to see her friend use the disabled toilet as she told friend - the door is the biological sign - inside are cubicles.

Help! She wants more information and ‘decent arguments’ other then what currently seems to be going round and round as cult ideology in her teen group.

I think I'd advise your dd to just find some new friends

That sounds so tedious and this they ( is that what you have to do?) will never listen even if the argument is sound, such is the narcissism

It's a good point, OP. I don't know if there's anything out there for teens who want access to good, science based, female-positive info.

Hmm ...

@hamstersarse

I think I'd advise your dd to just find some new friends

That sounds so tedious and this they ( is that what you have to do?) will never listen even if the argument is sound, such is the narcissism

Unfortunately it is a bit of a craze at the moment in her school it is difficult. I want a teen friendly blog or discussion that she could go on. Or articles she could read etc

Get new friends is not an option I don’t think. It’s taken her a while to make friends with these. She has other friends at orchestra and drama as doesn’t hang out with these friends all the time

id say to dd "oh dear, that sounds a bit embarrassing/awkward"
call everyone "they them" whatever the hell their pronouns are or their names and if they cant work out who anyone means, then at least it highlights the point of pronouns.

I don't know of any teen friendly blogs but she might find this (now defunct) yt channel useful. I think most or all of the women have been interviewed on Benjamin Boyce's channel, too

youtube.com/channel/UCmGEMjyAwk6R1lTmG_JjLUA

She needs new friends. And you have the patience of a saint. I would have given the friend's parents a run down of how the trip went and made it clear she wouldn't be invited again. I would be fuming. How is any of this acceptable?

How old is your dd?

My younger dd is in a similar position to yours - apparently surrounded by "non-binary" people and trans boys. There are now 8 trans boys in her school year (140 pupils, girls school), plus who knows how many non-binary kids. It feels like someone else is converting on an almost weekly basis. Her older sister is 5 years older and knew of zero trans children in the same school.

DD2 feels like she's the only one who's sceptical about all this. But she's worried that she'd be ostracised if she ever let anyone else know what she actually thinks. So she tries to say as little as possible and just keep her head down.

I wish schools wouldn't indulge in all this, to be honest. It seems like a clear example of social contagion (most of the "trans boys" hang out together) How do you come back from a name change and insisting everyone refer to you as if you are of the opposite sex?

My DD has just started secondary and of her friendship group of 6, 2 of them are all over this stuff. They've already had a go at one of the girls for misgendering another child in their class, who had the day before decided to change their name, as they are non binary, and have said to the group that it's 'hurtful and disrespectful as they are part of that community.' They were also using bad language to get their point across, which I think shocked my DD.

DD and others in the group currently go along with it for a quiet life, but I can tell she already finds it a bit tedious. These kids are 11 and 12, some of them only just 11 at that. Friends all the way through primary, but the ones making the biggest fuss are the ones who like to make the biggest fuss about everything as far as I tell. They're also the ones who have the most unfettered access to the internet.

I can't offer any suggestions on materials or info, but wanted to let you know OP that there's others of us navigating this issue. It's not easy.

@coronabeer

How old is your dd?

My younger dd is in a similar position to yours - apparently surrounded by "non-binary" people and trans boys. There are now 8 trans boys in her school year (140 pupils, girls school), plus who knows how many non-binary kids. It feels like someone else is converting on an almost weekly basis. Her older sister is 5 years older and knew of zero trans children in the same school.

DD2 feels like she's the only one who's sceptical about all this. But she's worried that she'd be ostracised if she ever let anyone else know what she actually thinks. So she tries to say as little as possible and just keep her head down.

I wish schools wouldn't indulge in all this, to be honest. It seems like a clear example of social contagion (most of the "trans boys" hang out together) How do you come back from a name change and insisting everyone refer to you as if you are of the opposite sex?

She's 14 but in some respects a young 14 -very much an academic geek -not street wise. Very confident.

Isn't everyone non-binary?

As in they don't conform to sex stereotypes.

I am a female, but can be in jeans one day and dresses the next.

Tbh non-binery is a load of bollocks.

@Outbutnotoutout

Isn't everyone non-binary?

As in they don't conform to sex stereotypes.

I am a female, but can be in jeans one day and dresses the next.

Tbh non-binery is a load of bollocks.

Yep! This.

but the ones making the biggest fuss are the ones who like to make the biggest fuss about everything as far as I tell.

Yep. Drama queens are best avoided, for the sake of one's own sanity.

I just can't believe that she spent 25 minutes in the toilets. Only person I ever knew who'd spend that long in there took a newspaper so that he could skive from work.

@Outbutnotoutout

Isn't everyone non-binary?

As in they don't conform to sex stereotypes.

I am a female, but can be in jeans one day and dresses the next.

Tbh non-binery is a load of bollocks.

This is our opinion. In face better to call yourself a girl and smash the stereotypes -says DD.

...and conversations over would she, as a lesbian, have sex with a trans woman who has just self Id as a women. Dd doesn’t want to be accused as a trans person phobe - where can she go for unbiased discussion

Definitely, definitely do not suggest this conversation absolutely don't.

Her non binary friend will definitely be the sort to consider TW in the definition of "lesbian" and looks riled up to jump on anyone who isn't completely TWAW.
I feel so sorry for that waiter

This will be a young woman with virtually no life experience especially of a sexual nature, she thinks she need a hundred labels to identify with in order to navigate her path through life and all of the labels are virtually meaningless when used in gender ideology. The fact that "lesbian" has a specific meaning that excludes penises will be "bigoted and phobic" in her pov.

I would have a quiet convo with your daughter along the lines that at the end of the day you're either a female NB person or a male NB person, (if the predictable "intersex" is raised, again DSDs affect male and female people very differently, you're still either male with a DSD or female with a DSD, the disorders are not proof that sex is a "spectrum").

Her friend will always be perceived to be a female, will be treated as female, people will identify them as female, she needs female only spaces, needs female centred legal protections, as much as any other female, so the NB label is utterly pointless apart from in attempt to be super cool and trendy.

However, if your DD really wants to stay friends with this young person she'd better keep her mouth shut , because her friend has been completely taken in by gender ideology, probably from spending too much time on the internet, and will react extremely aggressively to anyone not 100% in line with it all. Sad but true.

No advice but did happen to watch this last night, it's YouTuber Exulansic taking down a cringeworthy BBC Three bit on young NB people telling us why they're so special.

The original source is nigh-on unbearable so it's good to hear someone talk sense and pick it apart. Exulansic seems to have returned to the topic a few times this week too.

Similar for my year 7 DD. Many of her friends the same age (different schools though) have declared themselves as something other than straight.
I said to her that I don't doubt some people know at this age that they are gay (for example), but as for anything else I dont think they necessarily have the life experience to 'classify' themselves yet, eg bi or pansexual.

DD doesn't feel like she's anything at all yet and I told her that was fine and probably most of her friends actually feel like she does but maybe feel pressured to answer a certain way. She thought maybe that is true.

It just seems that they are desperate to be special and unique and this gives them an outlet for this. Maybe I'm just cynical.

@DdraigGoch

but the ones making the biggest fuss are the ones who like to make the biggest fuss about everything as far as I tell.

Yep. Drama queens are best avoided, for the sake of one's own sanity.

Oh my god yes. She was veggie. She told me she was veggie. I queued up in a restaurant -they were packed -with their orders.She told me she wanted cheesy chips -I got her what she asked for. Then she sneered and told me she was vegan -WTF -I nearly lost it at that point.

I refused to change it pointing out she had asked for veggie not vegan.
She ate it.

We went shopping after and every two minutes she buggered off -we spent half our time looking for her in the shopping mall -at one point 20 minutes looking for her .................argh!

Her parents divorced and both remarried and she has two younger siblings on each side -she lived 5 years with one -then the other then back again -until 16 when she will again live with the other. Can't help feeling she feels rejected and this is almost a cry for help.

This is our opinion. In face better to call yourself a girl and smash the stereotypes -says DD.

Your DD is great

Honestly I'd take the pronouns/trans stuff out of it.

Anything else and you'd not he wanting to find literature ir a you tube video to explain why narcissistic, self absorbed, and overly needy, demanding selfish ( for using the disabled toilet) and dramatic friends are a bad idea.

I just can't believe that she spent 25 minutes in the toilets. Only person I ever knew who'd spend that long in there took a newspaper so that he could skive from work.

It will have been 25 minutes on the Internet declaring to the other special identities out there how they were striking a blow for the safety of transpeople in an uncaring world.

I don't think it's healthy for the 'non-binary' to be indulged in this behaviour either. No one is doing they any favours allowing they to get away with this appalling behaviour. Then will end up with no friends or toxic friendships. Firm boundaries need to be put in place. We all remember the spoilt children with difficult home life's from school. And we all remember that they were a nightmare. The trans thing is a distraction as a PP said.

I hope I've done the pronouns right. I don't actually know what a pronoun is but I know mumsnet are very keen on them so I've tried my best

Can't help feeling she feels rejected and this is almost a cry for help.
There may well be grounds for feeling sorry for her, but her problems are not your daughter's responsibility to fix. With the various attention-seeking behaviours you've described, I wouldn't be inviting her again, and would be telling her parents that it is down to her rudeness. However, I would consult with your daughter before deciding on that course of action, in case she is worried that she may become a target for bullying.