DD and non binary friends and pronouns

[IAAP]

I’ve always had the POV all of my D.C. are welcome to be themselves - I don’t mind who they choose as a partner and if say DD liked a girl - I didn’t have a problem with that.

DD has never ‘liked’ anyone this far but upon her return to school last year felt pressured to ‘declare’ her sexuality : gender etc she refused and said she hasn’t made up her mind yet.

Of her group of female friends - 4 have declared themselves non binary.
I’ve told DD that there is a biological sex in her dna, her sex organs - that surgery can remove, her gender which means what she thinks she is according to someone else’s description and then her sexuality which is who she is attached to.

Lots of her friends are changing their names and pronouns. One friend has changed her name, 3 times in 6 weeks - huffing and puffing when people don’t get it right - she has declared herself non binary and declared herself gender neutral and insists on they / them and corrected everyone around her should they fail to get the latest ‘change’ right. I took DD and her friends out for the day yesterday - omg it was dire. One unfortunate guy happened to say very nicely ‘what can I get you ladies’ at the cafe - she launched into a tirade about how she wasn’t female. On the way in to the cinema queue for the disabled toilet - number of females toilet x20 most free - she refused to use them. She went into a disabled toilet x1 and had a queue of 6 people waiting for it when she came out ……25 minutes later. DD was appalled as ‘they are not disabled’ friend says ‘I’m standing up for my rights’.

DD says she is finding her arguments tedious but wants a good push back on non binary. I said maybe think about non binary friend (who has declared she is a lesbian) and conversations over would she, as a lesbian, have sex with a trans woman who has just self Id as a women. Dd doesn’t want to be accused as a trans person phone - where can she go for unbiased discussion and to get more facts (teen friendly) that don’t push this all men are women if they say it? Dd thinks a man can become a women by a process of surgery and gender reassignment but that doesn’t change the biological sex only the outward appearance so you can look like a women. If gave her the rage to see her friend use the disabled toilet as she told friend - the door is the biological sign - inside are cubicles.

Help! She wants more information and ‘decent arguments’ other then what currently seems to be going round and round as cult ideology in her teen group.

Could your DD assign a nickname to the indecisive friend and just use that every time.

Personally, I wouldn't entertain any of it and I'd buy your daughter a copy of Helen Joyce's Trans book.

God, the friend sounds unbearable, nothing to do with being nonbinary. She needs to come to terms with the basic idea that other people also have rights (and feelings), not just her, but you can't really teach that to someone else's child.

It's not specifically written for teens but your daughter might like the article Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls” by MK Fain. A feminist perspective, based on the author's experience of several woman friends (age 19-23) deciding they were non-binary, and her attempts to understand their different reasons and experiences. She comes out about where your daughter already is, with the idea that you can't opt out and trying to reinforces the stereotypes for everyone: 4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

This one is more recent, by the same author, focusing on celebrities going nonbinary, mainly Demi Lovato: quillette.com/2021/05/31/sorry-demi-lovato-you-cant-fight-sexism-by-opting-out-of-womanhood/

This one - from Australian blogger Tony, aka @svyazhsk - is a bit more theoretical (nothing too advanced) and debunks some common talking points from a socialist perspective: freerlives.wordpress.com/2020/02/02/the-fake-radicalism-of-nonbinary/ Lots of good stuff on sex role stereotyping on his blog, too.

Then there's this from Fair Play for Women with talks about how demands for nonbinary recognition in the UK runs the risk of undermining women's rights and opportunities: fairplayforwomen.com/stonewalls-non-binary-demands-undermine-womens-protections/

@nauticant

I just can't believe that she spent 25 minutes in the toilets. Only person I ever knew who'd spend that long in there took a newspaper so that he could skive from work.

It will have been 25 minutes on the Internet declaring to the other special identities out there how they were striking a blow for the safety of transpeople in an uncaring world.

Yep. She probably also omitted to say how she was fucking over the disabled people who were waiting behind her who may have been absolutely desperate for the toilet and some of whom may have conditions which mean they can't wait very long. Selfish, nasty, self absorbed little madam.

DD did point out to her that the disabled people behind her DIDN'T have a choice they NEEDED the toilet and she told her friend off for that.

To be fair after a long and weary day we dropped the friend off and DD got back in the car and said 'Never EVER again' -next time we go just the two of us. I can not believe her actions over the toilets -she's not disabled. It was dark so she couldn't see my smile. But she's there -friend is just a self centred arse hole.

[quote Lammysaurus]God, the friend sounds unbearable, nothing to do with being nonbinary. She needs to come to terms with the basic idea that other people also have rights (and feelings), not just her, but you can't really teach that to someone else's child.

It's not specifically written for teens but your daughter might like the article Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls” by MK Fain. A feminist perspective, based on the author's experience of several woman friends (age 19-23) deciding they were non-binary, and her attempts to understand their different reasons and experiences. She comes out about where your daughter already is, with the idea that you can't opt out and trying to reinforces the stereotypes for everyone: 4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

This one is more recent, by the same author, focusing on celebrities going nonbinary, mainly Demi Lovato: quillette.com/2021/05/31/sorry-demi-lovato-you-cant-fight-sexism-by-opting-out-of-womanhood/

This one - from Australian blogger Tony, aka @svyazhsk - is a bit more theoretical (nothing too advanced) and debunks some common talking points from a socialist perspective: freerlives.wordpress.com/2020/02/02/the-fake-radicalism-of-nonbinary/ Lots of good stuff on sex role stereotyping on his blog, too.

Then there's this from Fair Play for Women with talks about how demands for nonbinary recognition in the UK runs the risk of undermining women's rights and opportunities: fairplayforwomen.com/stonewalls-non-binary-demands-undermine-womens-protections/[/quote]
@Lammysaurus this is perfect just what I needed

My DS who is 14 is right in the middle of this. Of his friendship group all of the girls have changed their names, orientations, etc. etc. He and his other friends (who are boys) are utterly bemused by it all. The girls have come up with a helpful system of coloured wristbands which indicate their sexuality and badges to indicate their pronouns. We’ve discussed it a few times, and he is clear on his understanding of sex vs gender. I’ve told him that I would nod and smile and say
‘As long as you’re happy’ or some such when they are waxing lyrical about their new identities.
He does get a bit upset when they shout at him for getting their names or pronouns wrong, but when they’re changing them on a weekly basis it’s hard to keep up!

My oldest identifies as NB as do a few friends - TBH while I believe a tiny minority people are NB, most kids now are adopting it bc they don't like the gender binary rather than bc they have a profound sense of being neither sex, and have expressed this to DC. We are 'indulging' it because of, as DH puts it, 'not being a dick' - if we say 'Nooo, you can't be NB', it just becomes a wedge between us and something between them and their friends. I think it's a bit of trend, but maybe I'm just old and their on to something but my hope is it will ultimately lead to a valuable rethink about gender stereotypes. I have told them that I think if one doesn't like stereotypes, better to own ones birth sex and declare you can still express yourself however you like. And also that theirs is the first generation to experience adolescence so much through this lens of gender and some of the 'discomfort' they feel in gender identity is normal adolescent stuff.

Came to a bit of a head with DH recently, accepting as he wishes to be, when DC said friend, J, wanted to use neopronouns whereby people referred to them by their own pronouns (ie, I would use 'she' and DH 'he') and this just pissed DH off and I kind of understand it, but the language he used was perhaps a bit un helpful. It doesn't feel too big a deal to me personally as I can't see a scenario where I'd refer to J in the third person in front of her anyway, but hey ho.

One thing I am wondering about lately, is, for all those trans boys in schools - how many of them are using male toilets? Do they feel safe to do that? And if they don't, what does that say about where the problem is.... (as in, is it cis women/girls not being 'nice' or is it male violence)?

Personally I'd be asking how the hell you can be a NB Lesbian.

It defies logic.

You can't be same sex attracted when you've rejected the reality of sex in preference to the concept of being non-gendered.

The thing is the more kids who id as NB fundamentally the less cool/edgy/special etc it becomes as a concept and thus a far less desirable/exclusive "tribe" to join.

As for this particular child I think I'd absolutely separating rude/thoughtless behaviour from being veggie/vegan/NB/next thing whatever it is (eg the food/wandering off).

Using the disabled toilets in circumstances you describe isn't standing up for your rights, it's stamping on the rights of others and I've have challenged it there and then.

OP. I think the situation handled itself. Your DD (rightly) told off her friend for her egregious behavior hogging a disabled toilet. You, the adult, showed your frustration and put up boundaries. While DD may think she can't find another friend, I sure that isn't the case. Sadly, the obnoxious young girl is the one who will lose friends.

That 25 mins in the disabled toilet has really pee'd me off, I'm glad your DD realised how ridiculous and selfish it was. Young people love a crusade - this is the current one. There are some transboys at my school, not sure which toilets and changing rooms they use though.

One unfortunate guy happened to say very nicely ‘what can I get you ladies’ at the cafe - she launched into a tirade about how she wasn’t female.
"Well I wasn't talking to you then. I'll take your order last, ladies first, you know"
('ladies first' is a bit archaic but needs must when dealing with someone so obnoxious)

More realistically the cafe guy would have thought: eggshells alert! if I make one false step here a social media campaign targeted at the cafe will end up getting me the sack.

I know you say she can’t get new friends, but I would be doing everything in my power to change her friends. They are trouble with a capital T.

I’ve known a few friends now whose daughters got involved in fervent trans groups and none of them ended well. There was always one or two kids who were extremely troubled and I think because of the whole dancing around this issue, instead of being given compassionate but steady security, were left to go down rabbit holes and dragged my friends kids with them.

Alternatively if this is an absolute no, I would still be advising your child about core values. Don’t get into the rabbit hole. Things like trust, respect, friendships based on accepting a person especially if they don’t feel ready to talk or identify in the way others want them to. And I’d get to know her friends, keep them close and keep a really beady eye on them!

This is what adults have done to children's minds mobile.twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1453036175174873090