Do Women Need Male "Allies"?

[BuffysBigSister]

My company has been dragged kicking & screaming into Equality, Diversity & Inclusion. They have a very poor pay gap but to give them credit they are trying to improve matters. They are having a Male Allyship Panel this month and the invitation states that "gender inclusion programmes work better when men are engaged"

The wording is provoking me to send a response along the lines of "men should sit down and shut up for 5 fucking minutes" but I sense that may be provocative.

What do you think about "allyship" - not just in relation to men/women but generally. Isn't just another chance for men to speak on behalf of other people? Please share positive & negative as I want to attend the event and try to give constructive feedback (with a side serving of sarcasm of course)

Yes women have needed male allies - it would have been very hard to achieve political change without them, when the power rested with men. I think even now having male allies is generally a good thing. BUT. These men will have their own agenda whether they consciously know it or not. I've seen male feminists who were very good against men's rights activists side heavily with trans activists and tear viciously into 'terfs'. One example was David Futrelle. A real shame, I thought, but then perhaps his obsession with misogynistic males had something dubious about it anyway.

I had to google David Futrelle as I hadn't heard of him. I think there was something in the Nolan podcasts about Stonewall no longer advocating that there be LGBT allies in a workplace as it implied that LGBT people couldn't speak for themselves.
Maybe its the wording in the invite which has riled me, makes it sound like the only way we can make progress on "gender" balance is if we centre men. Maybe I am being too sensitive.

So many men don't consider for a moment that women experience sexism & risk in their day to day lives. If your work is prepared to give time to raise awareness to that, why on earth would you disagree?

I'm not really interested in their suggestions what women can do to stop people being pricks, but they've a better idea what men can do to challenge sexism and misogyny.

Frankly I'm sick to the back teeth of women being asked 'what can we do to stop men hurting women' - ask a fucking man for a change, because if women had an answer to the patriachy, we'd be all over it.

I agree about Futrelle, NotTERF. Woke men often speak out of both sides of their mouths regarding respect for women.

Yes. Women do need male 'allies'. For so long the onus has been on women to 'protect' ourselves; taking steps like calling friends when we get home, wearing sensible shoes, not getting too drunk etc etc... but men have been found wanting in explaining what they can do to stop abusing / harassing women. I find it similar to having 'white allies' in the context of racism, it's not enough for white people to declare that they aren't racist therefore it's nothing to do with them.

I'd actually welcome an initiative aimed at men engaging with other men about not being arseholes. The women are tired and frightened.

I agree we need male allies, but not the ones that think they can take over and start telling women what to do.

My dad was by far the greater feminist of my parents and helped make me the women I am now. So I think any man who has any influence over the growth and development of a girl or women, be that as a father, a teacher or a mentor to someone establishing themselves in a career, would do far more for sex equality by being "allies" to women.

Yes absolutely, although perhaps allies is the wrong wording. If you want something to change it is very difficult trying to do it with 50% or more of the employees not backing the change.

Many men, when the time is taken are more than willing to accept the changes and even happy to help implement them, the problem is when someone who is usually loud, angry and somewhat aggressive demands changes are made, with no explanation, changes which can often make no sense without explanation.

We need them, because until men make misogynistic views and comments in all-male company unacceptable, nothing will really change. The misogynists don’t care what we think, they will only examine their views when other men stop tolerating them.

Interesting about Stonewall not wanting straight/cis allies any more though. Where does that leave all the brave straight men bravely displaying their pronouns in their email signatures? Is their bravery not valued?

I think "allyship" is needed as long as the terms of that allyship are well defined and are actually helpful. So, not just a talking shop for men, nor a way for men to further their own personal prospects by having a public way to show their apparent inclusiveness. Who does the Male Allyship Panel report to? Who is setting the agenda? Who is setting the success criteria or expected outcomes? And so on.

Yes. I'm the only woman in my department of 26. I can't do it all, especially when much of the industry is also like that. They can do as much as they like with women's networks and do on, but that remains a niche thing, and most of my male colleagues don't think they need to do anything, as long as they're not actively groping any woman by the photocopier (not that they're usually in the office these days.) Men, by being in the majority, create the company culture. If they don't see a need to change and make things more open to women, things won't change.

I hope I'm an ally to PoC and LGB people. Would I go on a panel to spout about it? No, that would be a total self-aggrandizing load of bollocks. My job during any event about someone else is to shut up and listen. So it the panel women talking about what they need, or men talking about what they do?

Thanks everybody. There's been some really interesting replies here which is great. The Male Ally Panel is not meeting until mid-Nov and I have signed up to attend. It will be interesting to hear what they have to say and maybe give some more constructive feedback based on this points raised here.
I do think its generally a positive step by the company but I also want to make sure that women's voice are centre stage.

What's the balance of men and women on the panel?

If it's a mixture, arementalkingtoomuch.com/

I love it when men actually show and interest and stand up for us, but the best thing that 'allies' can do is listen, this isn't men's 'fight' as such, but of course change can't happen if men don't engage. Slightly different topic but I was recently discussing with a group of friends (all white except for 1 black man) the use of the 'n' word within the black community, the white people were all saying it's their word to take back and reframe the meaning etc etc which I do agree with but equally the only black person in the group was saying he didn't agree with anyone using the word, none of the white people listened and just talked over him with their opinions, this isn't the kind of allieship anyone needs. Listening to people who are directly affected is the number one thing that allies should do.

The wording is provoking me to send a response along the lines of "men should sit down and shut up for 5 fucking minutes" but I sense that may be provocative.

I completely agree. (With both parts of your sentence! )

I wonder if suggesting some form of 'active listening' for males might be useful?

The dynamics of how males tend to dominate conversations etc need to be put front and centre of any arrangement that includes male allies. They need to be acknowledged. Not taken personally, but there are plenty of stats to show the 'credibility gap' and the different responses and reactions to people dependant on people's sex.

So, yes, male allies are a good thing to have, but that has to be part of a wider structured arrangement that considers how to ensure that women's voices aren't, as they so often are, subsumed by mens'.

We do need male allies as if men don't give a shit about women's rights we will never achieve women's rights. I also think we need men who are vocal about campaigning and advocating for women's rights. I don't think men should just shut up and listen. I think they need to speak, especially to other men and especially, especially calling out other men.

‘Allyship’ is on my cringe list of phoney words. Sadly ‘inclusion’ now tends to mean ‘exclusion’. ‘Siblings’ is now used in a babyish sugar-coated way in order to avoid using the horrifically sexed ‘brothers and sisters’

[quote MrsTerryPratchett]What's the balance of men and women on the panel?

If it's a mixture, arementalkingtoomuch.com/[/quote]
It's 3 men and 1 woman which I think is fair as they are specifically discussing how to be a male ally, sharing their perspectives - one senior man from each of our global locations so will be curious to see if the ideas are different according to location. We are very much at the start of all this at work.

Maybe the best thing a male 'ally' could do would be to ensure other men shut up so that women's voices can be heard. And also to ensure men keep their hands to themselves so that women can move about in safety.

What we don't want is mean speaking for us. We have voices. They're just not as loud as men's voices.

It's 3 men and 1 woman which I think is fair as they are specifically discussing how to be a male ally

Alternatively it's 3 men whose voices are not only louder than the one woman's, but who are also able to outvote her on a subject they have no intimate knowledge of.

Yes as over the world and forever men still control the govts, business etc etc and without those with financial clout, political clout etc onboard then things change incredibly slowly or not at all (and can go backwards incredibly fast).

Getting stuff done when the vast majority of men don't like it or don't care is incredibly hard.

What we DON'T need is the way this is being applied in apparently a host of areas esp work!

Signs it's going to go wonky include

Women's network or similar being called all gender network

Events etc for male allies to be lauded usually instead of women

Things being shifted subtly to moving focus off women and onto. Men have issues to, and also branching out into other topics in general. Important ones, but with the effect of again not focusing on women

Men dominating any conversation. Saying things like I realised when I had daughters etc to massive applause

Etc etc.

Also note IME the men who do get it. Are not the look at me ones.

If it's how to be a male ally then really women should be saying their views. Otherwise you end up with the blokes saying hopeless rubbish and congratulating each other.

I've always felt that adopting the identity 'feminist ' or 'ally' for oneself is uncomfortable, even inappropriate. I can't imagine feeling right about joining a panel with that name. So often men have co-opted those self-descriptors as if drawing on a Cloak of Invisibility. They wear it, pontificate and feel that the critique of Feminism no longer applies to them or their behaviours. And lots turn out to be shits.

I always felt that Feminism was a convincing analysis, but that the consequence of being convinced was the challenge it posed for me to think about, and try to change, my socialisation and behaviour. So I'd wonder which blokes were putting themselves forward for the Allyship Panel. Maybe this is cynical or an eccentric view, I dunno.

I would put money on those who said they'd do panel being a mix of

Good for career/ profile etc
Types who know everything about everything and are always right
Little insight into women's concerns etc at all
Have one or two trivial anecdotes

Having said that I was an LGBTQetc ally at an old work. Mates with bloke who ran it. Had trouble getting bums on seats etc. I helped with stuff and went along with him to industry LGBT stuff.