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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Drink and needle spiking and mixed sex toilets.

26 replies

IvyTwines2 · 27/10/2021 12:03

A middle-aged man discussing spiking (drinks and jabbing) on BBC radio a few days ago dismissed the idea of people being jabbed because, he maintained, the drug would be so fast-acting the attacker wouldn't be able to get the victim somewhere else to assault them. A young woman on the radio this morning described being spiked, retreating to the venue toilet and the man following her in. I appreciate this can happen in a dark, busy venue with single sex toilets too, but it's so much easier now for a man to follow a woman unchallenged into a mixed sex toilet to assault her.

OP posts:
DoesHePlayTheFiddle · 27/10/2021 12:19

Yes.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 27/10/2021 12:20

Yes.

No thank you.

MargaritaPie · 27/10/2021 12:29

No evidence yet that any actual spiking with the use of needles has taken place, just anecdotal reports.

Re spiking of drinks I posted this study in the other thread too
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17251610/

"Conclusions: Most patients allegedly having had a spiked drink test negative for drugs of misuse. The symptoms are more likely to be a result of excess alcohol."

Reptar · 27/10/2021 12:34

The needle stick itself might be the motive for these assaults. Or it might be an attempt to create a climate of fear. Or both.

TheWeeDonkey · 27/10/2021 12:49

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Veeta · 27/10/2021 12:52

In that study posted 20% of those tested did test positive for ‘drugs of misuse’ - although not for ghb or the typical ‘date rape’ drugs. The authors did also acknowledge that many of the subjects could have been spiked with alcohol (which i believe is the most common spiking drug). Also they say they tested ‘most’ study participants (I can’t see that they’ve been more specific) on the night of the alleged spiking so any drugs shouldn’t have left the system, but they also state ghb stays in the system for 18hours and I thought it was actually closer to 12. Their conclusion also suggests some bias as they say the results confirm their suspicions (the authors are a&e doctors, not scientists) that most alleged spiking cases are just excess alcohol consumption. Finally, the study is pretty old now (2007) and may not reflect the current availability of ‘date rape’ drugs.

I think some cases probably are people who drink too much and are surprised by how drunk they’ve become, but even if this study is correct, 1 in 5 of those who think it’s happened to them could well be correct? Leaves aside how you prove spiking by alcohol or recreational drugs vs voluntary consumption.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 12:56

@Reptar

The needle stick itself might be the motive for these assaults. Or it might be an attempt to create a climate of fear. Or both.
Absolutely

All you need is some random poking you with a needle!

BatmansBat · 27/10/2021 12:57

Just an observation but we have people who argue that drink spiking and following sexual abuse not is an issue. The same posters also seem to argue for legalising prostitution.

Maybe people have different views as to female boundaries and what constitutes consent?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 27/10/2021 13:04

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TurquoiseBaubles · 27/10/2021 13:07

Quite apart from the alleged drink spiking, women's toilets in bars/clubs used to be safe spaces for women, whether they had been drugged, had too much to drink, or were simply being harassed by creepy men.

I see Margarita has ignored the entire point of the thread and is waffling on (as usual) with "it didn't happen, but if it did it was the women's fault".

IvyTwines2 · 27/10/2021 13:20

@TurquoiseBaubles

Quite apart from the alleged drink spiking, women's toilets in bars/clubs used to be safe spaces for women, whether they had been drugged, had too much to drink, or were simply being harassed by creepy men.

I see Margarita has ignored the entire point of the thread and is waffling on (as usual) with "it didn't happen, but if it did it was the women's fault".

Yes, it does happen, and happened to a close relative of mine, who ended up in hospital. And the last time I visited a trendy bar venue the only toilets were down a secluded corridor away from the view of any bar or venue staff, were mixed sex, and consisted of a room (door to corridor closed) with two cubicles with flimsy locks, a couple of washbasins and, beside them, urinals, which were in use.
OP posts:
BatmansBat · 27/10/2021 13:41

Ivy, I am so sorry to hear that. Flowers for your relative.

IvyTwines2 · 27/10/2021 13:58

@BatmansBat thank you, I'm glad to say they made a full recovery but it was very scary at the time.

OP posts:
Riapia · 27/10/2021 14:07

@MargaritaPie

No evidence yet that any actual spiking with the use of needles has taken place, just anecdotal reports.

Re spiking of drinks I posted this study in the other thread too
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17251610/

"Conclusions: Most patients allegedly having had a spiked drink test negative for drugs of misuse. The symptoms are more likely to be a result of excess alcohol."

Ah well we can rest easy in our beds. There’s our proof that not only it doesn’t happen, it has never happened.
NiceGerbil · 28/10/2021 04:07

I find the needle news as the mo... Very peculiar and have done since first report.

It doesn't make sense to me.

Things like-

  1. Where getting syringes / drugs? Drug addiction places? Internet? Medical students behind it?
  1. To get drugs into system need to be certain areas. There's a reason eg heroin addicts inject as they do. What substances work if into back? Other areas reported? How long is needle? Guessing not long. Also injecting dangerous if not know what doing
  1. Smuggling that kit into clubs is big risk. Being seen getting needle. Injecting woman. Etc etc. Difficult in a club to do unnoticed
  1. Why bother? Most common spike used is alcohol. Then you got others you can get without too much effort for drinks. Or spike with mdma etc. Seems a lot of effort
  1. For what? He doesn't know her. Lost in crowd. Following weird. She'll be v likely to be with mates. Women I've seen said were aok before, not drunk etc. So likelihood of him being able to do anything is v low surely
  1. Woman I saw on TV said couldn't remember. Then saw tiny puncture on back. Why looking at back? Not easy in mirror

Yeah just I could be wrong obv but seems ???

On the bogs. If even a bit crowded there's never enough ladies. And we tend to keep an eye out for each other IME (long experience!).

NiceGerbil · 28/10/2021 04:14

The fact is that alcohol is by far the biggest risk.

Getting really drunk
Losing inhibitions and eg going home with someone/ people you wouldn't otherwise
Being bought triples/ doubles rather than singles
Being persuaded etc into drink after drink/ shots etc

Of course when something happens then it's usual victim blaming.

And the culture is very much that getting a girl pretty pissed /drunk is standard for blokes who want to pull...

NiceGerbil · 28/10/2021 04:17

Plus of course it's not exactly unusual to be attacked by friend/ friend of friend / housemate etc.

It just feels like all this press and panic what about the massive elephant in the room? The one that society likes to ignore/ blame victim etc.

And I mean. If going to all that risk effort and low chance of success. IE you're determined. Why not target a really drunk girl inside/ outside? Or a woman walking home etc?

aweegc · 28/10/2021 04:31

And I mean. If going to all that risk effort and low chance of success. IE you're determined. Why not target a really drunk girl inside/ outside? Or a woman walking home etc?

The goal might not be rape or sexual assault. To me this sounds - for some of the reasons you've stated - like it could be some kind of power trip. Having a puncture wound doesn't mean someone was actually injected with something. It means their skin was punctured by something. It's not inconceivable that done little prick out there is getting his jollies from the fear and uncertainty that this causes in the individual. Of course now he's feeling like a very important wee man.

There could be more than one obviously and it could be other things, but I really don't see if as the final step of someone's illegal sexual/power activities. Rather, I see it as a step on the offending ladder and if it's not solved now then he'll go quiet got a while, change tactic and step up his attacks. Or this is a test to see if he can get away with/practice an aspect of what he's actually planning on doing.

And I use the singular because I find it strange that simultaneously this has started in multiple U.K. locations. Unless there are lots of copycat attacks, which isn't impossible.

NiceGerbil · 28/10/2021 04:46

I am reserving my judgement. At moment sounds... Unlikely. To me.

Inadequate blokes also have a myriad of easier ways to feel they've got one over on a woman/ girl.

Eg sticking hand up skirt on crowded dancefloor and blending away before she gets a chance to clock him..

PaulaTrilloe · 28/10/2021 04:48

Yes it might be a sharp item such as a sewing needle or safety pin which is probably quite easy to conceal. Am sure some get their kicks from scaring people

logsonlogsoff · 28/10/2021 07:48

IS there actual evidence of women being injected though? I still find it hard to believe. Given that the scum bags who spike drinks would find it so much easier to either spike a drink or get a girl hammered or target a girl already hammered.

WinterTrees · 28/10/2021 09:34

It almost doesn't matter if the needle injections turn out to have happened or not. The fact is that young women are on such high alert about their own safety, so hyper-aware that every time they go on a night out there's a chance it could end badly for them or one of their friends, that they believe it could happen. They have internalised the fact that they are in a group (young women) that is at very high risk of being targeted to be drugged without their knowledge or consent, and with incredibly low risk of being caught or facing consequences for the perpetrator.

Conclusions: Most patients allegedly having had a spiked drink test negative for drugs of misuse. The symptoms are more likely to be a result of excess alcohol.

I cannot express how angry this makes me.

SPIKING DOES HAPPEN. I have 3 daughters, aged 26 to 19. The two younger ones have both been spiked, one of them twice. The oldest hasn't been spiked herself, but had to look after her 2 friends when they were spiked on a Halloween night out at university. That experience - being responsible for getting 2 girls vomiting and unable to stand home, when no taxi would take them because of the vomiting - traumatised her enough to put her off going to nightclubs and she's never been to one since. (Incidentally, she's pretty certain that the spiking was done by bar staff as they'd only just arrived at the club and hadn't had close contact with anyone else.)

That was in 2015 and spiking has got way, way more widespread and commonplace since then. The fact that a report from 2007 when the internet was still in its infancy and there were no platforms like snapchat and WhatsApp for the easy procurement of drugs, gives an accurate picture of what the situation is now is laughable.

My youngest was spiked at pre-drinks in a friend's flat, by someone who must have been in that circle of about 20 friends. It was at the start of the evening. She hadn't had 'excess alcohol' - she'd only just arrived.

In none of the cases my daughters were involved in did anyone report what happened or go to hospital for toxicology tests. What would have been the point? There is no interest in finding the perpetrators. The police were hardly going to leap into action, trawling through hours of CCTV to see if it was caught on camera. And of course, there is a very good chance that they wouldn't even have been believed. If posters on a parenting website assume young women who claim to have been spiked have probably just had more to drink than they thought, what chance have they got of being believed by the police? The recorded statistics we have on this are a drop in the ocean.

Yes, young women are scared. But that's because they've been responsible for their own safety and policing it for themselves for years. Any sense of an additional, even more random threat is going to be the tipping point for many, not because they're silly little airheads running around getting hysterical over an unlikely rumour, but because they are TIRED of this bullshit. What the hell do women have to do to protect themselves, and what will it take to wake society up from its indifference to their safety?

The whole issue needs urgent and intense scrutiny. If the needle stories are what brings this about, that's one good thing. From what I'm seeing though, it seems depressingly more likely to make people even more ready to dismiss young women as making it up.

TheWeeDonkey · 28/10/2021 17:03

I agree WinterTrees and I'm so sorry for your daughters' experiences. Its so hard for young women today.

I work in an office with 18 women and we were talking about this today. Every single one of us has experienced or has known a friend experience predatory behaviour on nights out, from men following you around, to grabbing or behaving inappropriately to much worse and it appears to be getting worse. So I really have no time for people who say this doesn't happen.

NiceGerbil · 28/10/2021 23:17

Winter I'm sorry for your DDs experiences.

I totally disagree with you though on just so much.

Don't know if you're still reading so won't go into it but if interested happy to.

PaulaTrilloe · 04/11/2021 06:28

Went to a gig yesterday Bag search metal detector body scan search band all drinks were in cans not glasses

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